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Managing Marketing: The Greening of Australian Construction

Davina_Rooney

Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Founder and Global CEO, Darren Woolley. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

Davina Rooney is the Chief Executive Officer of the Green Building Council of Australia and shares her experience leading the transformation of the building and construction industry in delivering long term, sustainable solutions for all Australians. Davina talks about the strategy of Rate, Advocate, Educate and Collaborate as the basis of aligning such diverse groups of stakeholders to the ultimate goal. And she highlights the importance of reframing the immediate cost into the longer-term value to achieve the desired result.

You can listen to the podcast here:

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Transcription:

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.

Today, I have a very special guest because I’m sitting down with Davina Rooney, Chief Executive Officer of the Green Building Council of Australia. Welcome, Davina.

Davina:

Thank you so much for having me.

Darren:

And look, I say a special guest because I guess people listening to this podcast, Managing Marketing, would be going, “What does someone that has a construction architecture and engineering focus have to do with marketing?”

But in actual fact, the purpose for wanting to have this conversation, was really the huge inroads and continued work that you’re doing with bringing about sustainability and environmental change in the construction industry. Could you elaborate a little bit on the role of the Green Building Council?

Davina:

Yeah. So, our purpose is to transition property in the built environment towards sustainability. So, our entire focus is change management. So, you talk about how that relates to marketing. A lot of the people that you speak and listen to are on a journey with people to change their minds or consider a different perspective.

Often, when we’re looking at how to transition property and construction towards sustainability, it’s also a change journey. So, there’s a lot of alignment there.

Darren:

Now, I just want to pick up on the term “sustainability,” because I’ve noticed that a lot of people are starting to question the definition. So, what’s your operating definition of sustainability?

Davina:

So, the classic definition is a global definition that relates to the Brundtland definition about meeting the needs of the planet today so we have enough for the future.

However, I find more of a classic definition that has more resonance with people is taking care of your own health and your family and community’s health, and then looking after the planet’s health.

Darren:

Right. So, it starts very much at a personal level, a family level, and a community.

Davina:

Community. We find that if people aren’t engaged in their own health and wellbeing, that they’re less likely to be engaged in broader issues and also the broader environment.

So, if you look at people that are deeply passionate about the environmental movement, usually they’ve had a childhood playing with their community in the bush. You and I were talking earlier about the wonderful girl guide movement, where I’ve been on the board of New South Wales and ACT Guides.

A lot of that is building conservation through a love of nature and a desire for preservation for the natural environment, but also for the community. So, how do we grow that actually by spending time and joy in those spaces?

Darren:

Okay. So, when people think of construction, because when you drive past anywhere, whether it’s a suburban street and there’s a house being demolished or you drive past a huge city development block, it doesn’t really feel very environmentally sustainable, does it?

Davina:

No, and I think all great problems start with a challenge. And the challenge for the built environment is a property in construction in operation, which is 40% of the carbon emissions. And the materials they use, about half of those globally are put towards property and construction.

So, coming out and saying the pathway to Paris is paved with net-zero buildings, as in highly efficient buildings, powered by renewables, built in the best way possible. If we can’t move in property and construction, we can’t move the globe.

And so, the role of an organisation like ours is to actually educate, work with people on things they could be doing differently, advocate, partner with government for that change and rate, which is to actually, we do certifications that we call Green Star on better-designed buildings in operation and construction, and take some of their leading practices to look to mainstream them across Australia.

And then really importantly, we work with everyone to make that happen. So, we collaborate.

Darren:

It’s interesting because I noticed in your description of construction, you extended it beyond the actual process of building to actually the use of the building beyond the actual construction process. The idea of energy sustainability, and there’d be a lot of different issues there.

Davina:

A huge number of issues. And so, about 80% of the emissions are used in operation. And so, when we’re constructing a building, one part is focusing on the construction practices, the waste practices. We have these sites recycling over 90%. There are all these opportunities with how they complete their waste, how they run their processes, renewables on site.

However, just looking at that process isn’t enough when a huge amount is how the building is used in operation. And a lot of those decisions are made in the design and construction upfront. So, it’s really taking a really long-term view to that process. So, whether it’s big construction sites or we’re very focused on particularly after the pandemic, better housing for all Australians.

Darren:

But it’s interesting because when we talk about net-zero emissions, there are three scopes. There’s scope one, scope two, and scope three. And a lot of people I think are very comfortable with scope one and scope two. It is the scope three of the upstream and downstream supply chain that know when you start applying it to different categories, it becomes quite complicated or complex for people.

Now, in the building industry or construction, I imagine (and you’ve already touched on it), it’s about all the materials upstream that you are sourcing and also downstream at the end-use consumption, isn’t it?

Davina:

Yeah, so an operating building, scope one being what you burn on-site or gas or refrigerants in a building, scope two being energy from the grid. So, the energy we use in operation for buildings is predominantly scope one and two. But exactly as you point out when we’re talking about constructions of sites, that’s all the upfront carbon emissions or embodied carbon in the materials, which is in that very important scope three.

And one of the things that we do is we complete strategy, but we partner globally. So, it’s recognised we have the United Nations, we have COP26, a key focus on that because of the points I raised earlier are going to be on buildings and cities.

And the World Green Building Council, who we partner with, one of my board is their chair, is incredibly focused on getting the buildings and cities focused because as I mentioned, we need to have net-zero pathways for those buildings. Otherwise, there isn’t a pathway forward.

Darren:

Does it also extend to the lifetime of the building? I mean, because every building has a lifespan, doesn’t it? Where eventually, it either has to be completely renovated or torn down and reconstructed. Is that as far as the view goes?

Davina:

So, when you do a lifecycle analysis, obviously, you take a view on how long things last. I must say a wonderful boss of mine, Terry Raggett from Arup Associates in London is incredibly focused on design life.

So, when I speak to designers, they have this great concept that beautiful buildings are more sustainable because they get knocked down a lot less often. So, in a fabulous building like the Colosseum, no one would consider removing something of that scale and grandeur, whereas an ugly, poorly designed two-story walk-up, that might be moved on.

And so, one of the things that’s obviously incredibly hard to measure, but makes people very passionate is to say that buildings are designed with more beauty, more joy, better fit for purpose will stand the test of time because they’ll have enduring needs.

Darren:

There is something about architecture as a profession that it’s always had a balance in the best examples of beauty and aesthetics, functionality and sustainability.

Davina:

From the early days, we refer to the architects as the founders of the built environment movement towards sustainability. You know, there’s a lot of beautiful essays written in the 1970s about how do we exist in harmony, exploring the first of these concepts.

And so, over time, more engineering has been brought behind it, but we spend 90% of our time indoors. I mean, there’s a famous quote from Winston Churchill about we shape our buildings and then they shape us.

It’s very fundamental that if we are going to lean towards a more sustainable future, that we’re very focused in these areas and it has an enormous impact on the environment, but also, it has a critical role in people’s health.

The Climate Council put out a report in 2021 stating that kids with asthma who live in buildings where you cook with gas and you heat with gas, that’s as bad as someone passive smoking in the household.

Darren:

Right, okay. I hadn’t heard of that previously. It’s interesting because there are such things as they call them sick buildings or ill buildings that actually cause illness in the occupants.

Davina:

Absolutely. So, when we spend so much time indoors, things like access to nature, daylight, views, air quality, moisture, all these things impact our wellbeing. But when you look at the other end of the scale, how cold it is in buildings.

There’s a terrifying study coming out of Victoria that 87% of people who were presenting at emergency with hypothermia were found indoors. And it becomes really important because the most vulnerable are the least able to use services like air conditioning to change the air temperature, to improve poorly performing houses.

Darren:

Okay. So, we’ve touched on how architects and architecture as a profession have been very focused on sustainability and the environment and what’s best for the people that are going to be occupying the building.

I guess, the next big group in your group of stakeholders would be the developers. You know, the people that are then either funding this and doing this for commercial reasons.

Davina:

I’d say the architects led in the early days, but these days, it’s very developer-owner, investor-led. That’s where we’re seeing a huge amount of movement. So, within Australia, the developers and owners have been number one on the Dow Jones Sustainability Index (DJSI) for property or the Global Real Estate Sustainability Benchmark (GRESB) for over 10 years.

Darren:

Wow, because I was going to say, was this an open door that you’re pushing on in a way? Because it’s usually the excuses we hear in lots of different categories, is that, oh it’s the financials that stop us being sustainable. It’s the financials that stop us from embracing technology to make us more environmentally sound.

But in this case, you’re saying that it’s actually the owners and developers, the money responsible people that are actually pushing this trend.

Davina:

So, the investors are incredibly focused on climate change. There’s a huge focus, the money has moved. BlackRock made announcements that the money has moved, that it’s all about sustainable futures in that space.

For a lot of long-term owners, it would be the financials of a highly efficient building powered by renewables is extraordinary. So, one of our partners, the GPT, took their wholesale office fund net-zero last year on about a $10 billion portfolio. They’re saving $10 million a year.

And so, that’s a combination of their efficiency work, which is about 45% of their savings. The next chunk is renewable energy. They thought that would cost them more. But with the way the energy market’s moving by doing smarter procurement together with renewables, they saved in that area. And their last 10% has been about buying offsets for other projects to make up their last piece.

Now, they’re incredibly focused on more efficiency, more renewables, removing gas, so that becomes a smaller and smaller part of their mix. But we have to get out the new message that sustainability is the new business driver. This is what customers want. Surveys in Australia show that 80% of Australians are concerned about these issues. We need to actually connect the business narrative and drive this at scale.

So, you say in my sector, is it an open door? There are passionate parts of the industry that want to drive this, but if we want to take this to scale and change everything, there are certainly enough closed doors for me to spend my time on.

But what’s really important is that if we want to change everything, we have to take everyone. And so, it’s not enough to have the top-tier development market driving in this area. We’ve been doing a huge amount of work with social infrastructure and government because fabulous to have sustainable high-end offices, this is not healthy for the wealthy.

We want this to be in the heartbeat of every school design. We want this in a hospital that you walk into. Research shows that if you’re recovering in hospital and you have better access to daylight and the air quality is better, some access to nature and views, you know it yourself — if you’re in a dark room, you don’t feel very good.

When you’re in one that’s vibrant, you feel more lively and more engaged. And that’s part of the healing process.

Darren:

Is some of this though, going to be a natural trickle-down effect? And I know the term trickle-down economically is controversial. But in a way, we do have landmark buildings. You know, the idea of it being a landmark is because people look towards it and see it as an example of best practice.

Is that what we’re saying, is sort of it started perhaps 10 years ago with this view of let’s make the larger projects. But then the lessons from there, do you see that trickling down into things like schools, even homes, and the like?

Davina:

So, we’re seeing a lot of change, but we would say that if you want to change, the other challenge is we’re seeing the effects of climate change ramp up really quickly. So, if we had another 50, 60 years, maybe we could trickle down slowly. However, we would say, because this has to happen and has to happen fast, we talk about a carrot, a stick, and a tambourine approach.

So, we run a rating system, Green Star. We know people that use that rating system, they get better values for their buildings. People want to stay longer, they get better financial returns, 13% better financial returns and invest 1 to 3% to get the buildings there. That’s a pretty strong carrot.

Then on the stick side, I’ve mentioned the work within the policy space. What we need to do is lift up the voluntary standards with the carrot so we can bring in the stick so that we can change the construction code.

So, in 2019, we had a 35% movement in the construction code for everything other than residential. For the next construction code, NCC 2022, there’s a big conversation about, should we have better houses for all Australians.

Darren:

Make sense, doesn’t it?

Davina:

It makes sense, but it’s incredibly controversial because the first cost for doing something for the whole of life is always slightly higher. If you’re going to put in better glass, more insulation, set the home up to be healthier and more comfortable, there will be a one-off cost. However, that cost will have value.

So, the bank of England has done studies and people that have more efficient homes default on their home loans less because they have fewer costs and challenges. So, there’s-

Darren:

Yeah, operational costs are less.

Davina:

Yeah, so there’s less pressure on a household. So, we talk about the carrot, the stick, and then there’s the tambourine that I’m sure all the marketers are aware of. How do we take these boring but important areas and keep them top of mind?

So, we run global leadership programs for groups to commit to net-zero for 2030 and have been aligning that with the UN’s race to zero for COP26. So, it’s all about how do you take something and actually make it really interesting to keep talking about it and doing it every day.

And I’m very excited that in Australia, we have over 25 partners in that space, we have more and more leaning in, and there are some of the biggest property groups globally. And so, what’s really critical is that we find a way that we celebrate individual leadership with a carrot. We drive that to scale through a stick, and we keep everyone engaged to talk about it through a tambourine where we try and create engagement in this space.

Because these are long-term journeys. It’s not a fix and forget. We need to be sustaining interest on a long-term scale. And that’s how we’ll go from some of the biggest of buildings to some of the homes and schools.

So, I’m personally incredibly heartened by some of the work we’ve been doing with government. There are recent announcements about the Olympics for 2032 in Brisbane, and they have a really high commitment to sustainability, things like that.

Or when we worked with the Opera House to increase their ambition towards driving sustainability through that building, I think it makes an enormous amount of change.

Darren:

Well, that’s a great example, isn’t it? Because the Opera House was designed back in the 1960s. And when that was done, it was seen as a huge futuristic building. You know, in fact, some of the construction requirements were things that had never even been contemplated when it was built.

But perhaps the idea of the environmental sustainability of that building wasn’t a high consideration in the 1960s. But your point earlier about when there’s something that’s aesthetically beautiful, then you’re not going to tear it down to rebuild something that’s sustainable. You’re going to look for ways of making it more sustainable.

Davina:

Absolutely. So, I worked for an engineering firm, Arup who globally came to Australia to solve the technical problems associated with the Opera House. That was what brought them here. And I think there’s a real, how do we solve these complex challenges?

So, when I speak to the CEO, Louise Herron, she talks about how we do things in a way that’s tangible and real. So, they’re a net-zero building certified by Climate Active, they use renewables. But they do things like when they’re cleaning the opera forecourt, they use like bicarbonate of soda. When they’re cleaning the brass handrails, they do so with olive oil.

When they incorporate their programming, they look at bringing indigenous theatre to the forefront. There’s like a whole spectrum. And part of their role is about how they operate their own buildings better, but how they use their role on the Australian, and in fact, the global stage to make that more accessible to the many.

Darren:

Yeah. It’s fantastic. The other thing I’m hearing in our conversation Davina, is when we started developing the CO2 counter for marketing back in 2007, a lot of it, and this was to actually measure greenhouse gas emissions from all marketing activities — the focus back then was all about offsetting.

And what I’m hearing now is the same belief that we had back then and continue to have today, which is that offsetting is not the solution. That actually reducing — identifying, reducing, and getting it to the lowest possible point.

Then you may offset the part that there’s always going to be some component, but achieving that as small as possible is actually the long-term sustainable solution.

Davina:

That’s the long-term sustainable solution. Because if you imagine, if we all head for net-zero, then everyone needs to use those. But offsets, we need to look at there’s a lot of global papers coming out internationally about nature-based solutions, new biodiversity, the lungs of the earth.

Those will be funded in a lot of initial stages through the offset credits that we’re talking about. So, they have a really important role in this ecosystem, but what’s really great is if people exactly, as you say, minimize and reduce first, and then really engage in the offset market after they’ve done that.

However, that market when you look at Qantas’s offset program, they’re doing incredible work with indigenous rangers right near the barrier reef. So, those programs are an important part of the global solutions, and there are parts of the economy that will struggle to access easier solutions.

So, when we talk to our partners in concrete and steel, they need new technologies that don’t exist yet to become net zero. We call them the hard to abate sectors. So, at the moment what they’re doing is using some of the efficiency pathways, they’re using the renewables in buildings, and then they still have a large gap.

And the aim is to work with those sectors to drive nature-based solutions or increasing the biodiversity of the globe.

Darren:

And at the same time, invest in the technology innovations that are going to overcome those huge gaps as well.

Davina:

We need to close the gaps because there’s so many of them globally, that for us to get to net-zero 2050 as a society, we need to be doing all the easy things before 2030. And so, buildings, operational energy clearly falls in that space and then be spending a lot of time on the difficult sectors, a lot of which are about materials production.

So, both of which fall in the areas that we’re incredibly passionate about. And exactly like you say, those overlap with the areas that you’ve been tracking carbon within marketing.

Darren:

Well, and because one of the obstacles that we struck was that if you just look at offsetting, it becomes a cost of business. Whereas reduction actually becomes part of becoming more efficient. A lot of the reduction is actually removing waste that’s almost inherent in any process or any system, the first step is identifying where it is.

Davina:

What gets measured, gets managed, the old expression that this comes down to. But yeah, a lot of what we find is a lot of the first 30% of wastage that people improve in their efficiency part of their journey comes from looking at it with an incredible focus through a new lens. And so, some would say that the first 20 or 30% ends up being the good design that we sometimes lost as the world has moved faster.

Darren:

Look, just to go back a step and you talked about carrot, stick and tambourine, which I imagine aligns very well on your website. It says rate, advocate, educate, and you also mentioned collaborate. So, the Green Star ratings in a way are an encouragement. It’s the carrot.

Davina:

It is absolute encouragement for people to do better in that space and celebrate the outcomes. Like how fabulous, if that home that’s being designed in your street is going to be a net-zero home that’s healthy for the occupants and designed for the future, not increasing the urban heat island effect great plants. How fabulous if that was the case.

Darren:

Okay. Advocate is working with government, is it?

Davina:

So, in 2019, we launched a net-zero trajectory for the built environment with Minister Taylor and the Property Council. So, importantly, property’s a little bit complicated, we all know. So, there are different drivers at a federal level, where it’s often about setting the national construction code. At a state level where it’s often about the procurement in critical areas like schools and hospitals, or the local council where planning comes in place.

So, there are different toolkits for different areas, but we spend a lot of time working with our partners in government on two things, how we strengthen policies in our space, but the other being about how we work with them to do better with their own infrastructure and their own buildings.

Government collectively is about 30% of the land of the tenants in the Australian property market. That’s no small amount in procurement power. And when the money walks, often, we see the kind of change that we’re looking for.

Darren:

My God, you have all three levels of government that you need to advocate to.

Davina:

Look, it’s pretty complex. There are over 650 councils. But the Green Building Council turns 20 in 2022. So, it’s really important that we use our long-term partnerships. So, the Commonwealth is funding us to help local councils better incorporate national mechanisms and increase their awareness.

So, we’re seeing more partnership across multiple levels, but I won’t say that it’s not complex, there are over 650 councils in Australia.

Darren:

And those councils are as diverse as the Eastern suburbs and Outback Australia, where there are totally different requirements and expectations.

Davina:

Yeah, and that’s why it’s really important that there’s federal work on where the national construction code is. And then we use some of the leading councils to pilot what the future could look like and take those lessons and then deliver those back in the code. We’ve got to look at those as different symbiotic parts.

So, some of the leading councils, the City of Sydney, City of Melbourne have committed to net zero. South Australia’s built its large renewable plan for Adelaide. And so, we have to take the exemplars of the latest ship and actually use those to partner, to drive and show what’s possible in those cases before we take them to scale. So, they have their different role.

Darren:

And then you’ve got educate. So, what’s the primary focus there?

Davina:

So, for us, that’s about training the industry for all the complex issues that we’re talking about; whether it’s net-zero pathways, climate resilience, circular economy, all those areas. So, that takes the form of courses about Green Star or we run our own industry conferences, or we consider it broadly in sessions like today.

Darren:

Fantastic. And collaboration must be an important part because you’ve got such a diverse group of stakeholders, don’t you?

Davina:

Incredibly. So, we work with everyone from constructors, contractors, building manufacturers, owners, developers, government at all the different levels — universities. And the other thing that’s really interesting is that Green Star, the rating tool we use, we also partner with the New Zealand Green Building Council to use it and the South African Green Building Council.

And so, there’s a collection of different Green Building Councils globally that comes to the World Green Building Council and we partner together.

And then we partner with other rating tools in the space. You know, the WELL Building Institute, the International/IWBI who have their rating tool, WELL, I sit on the global governance council. Sustainability is a team sport and we’ve got to work together to try to simplify because otherwise, we can’t hit the important goals for tomorrow.

Darren:

So, in that just going through rate, advocate, and educate, where does the stick come in? Because I’m seeing all this as very positive and it’s encouraging and it’s coordinating and it’s helping people act in a very positive way; is the stick non-compliance?

Davina:

The stick is when you advocate, you ask for change and you ask for higher standards. So, when we asked for better standards for all Australians, that notes that if we build poor quality, cheaper buildings, we will set up intergenerational poverty.

There’s been some really important work by a community coalition showing that energy poverty in Australia is real. That means we’ve got to build better buildings. The only way to get everyone to simultaneously build better buildings is the stick. We increase the construction standards for Australia.

And Australia is going to have some really important conversations about how important that is. And in a highly regulated country like Australia, if people buy a new house and it’s designed to a certain standard, they think it’s good. That in Sydney means you can still have single glazed windows, have condensation on the inside and potentially mold in your curtains and furniture.

Darren:

I remember growing up in Victoria and they had houses with this big brass medallion, which was it’s an all-electric home. It was really interesting that it was seen back then that driving this idea of electricity at a time when almost a hundred per cent of Victoria’s electricity was coming from brown coal in your lawn. Isn’t it amazing how in one lifetime, the world can change so much?

Davina:

And potentially come back to the same place because we will again see Victorian celebrating all-electric homes, but powered by renewables this time. So, the future’s often oversold and under imagined.

Darren:

And that’s where marketing comes in.

Davina:

That’s where marketing comes in. I think there’s a genuine opportunity where we look at what consumers want. They want a movement towards a more sustainable future. I think marketers are such an important vehicle to help them find the how in their everyday decisions and include that as a consideration.

So, good communication strategies are about stories that people want to be told in imaginative ways. And I’m very hopeful that we’ll see industry driving in that direction. And I must tell you that the most inspiring stories of the future won’t be told by a boring engineer like me.

Darren:

I think you’re underplaying your potential in telling amazing stories.

Part of this is overcoming this almost preconception that this direction that the consumers/people want is actually about financial cost. You know, because almost every example in this conversation you’ve talked about yeah, it might cost more initially. You might need to invest, but it pays off in the longer term.

Davina:

We have to move to a value conversation rather than a first cost conversation. And what’s really interesting is you see people in the luxury car market, it’s a value conversation. Even in the way to a moderate car market, it’s a value conversation.

When you look at people’s phones, tablets, all of those are a value conversation. Why would you have value conversations in the lowest form of depreciating asset in your life and not have that conversation in the highest value of creative assets in your life that you’re going to own for a lot longer than the new iPhone?

So, I think part of this is how we change the narrative to how people think about what value looks like over the long term for some of the biggest assets they’ll ever engage with and where they want to work, live and play for their own lives.

Because one of the huge drivers we’re seeing in the different markets is how people want to live their lives. You know, we’re seeing the drivers with the millennials and they’ll move to companies depending on their value propositions. And so, actually being able to demonstrate the work that’s being done in this area, and a lot of emissions are held in property footprints is a key part of the opportunity.

Darren:

Davina, I really love what you just said there, where you talked about consumers choosing based on the value proposition because there’s a lot of talk in marketing around purpose. This idea of corporate purpose. But in actual fact, the only function of purpose is to actually become the stimulus for developing and delivering value, isn’t it?

There’s no point in having a purpose if there is no value proposition that comes off that to drive consumers and in fact all stakeholders to it.

Davina:

Yeah. I think there’s some really important work. The shared value work that came out of Harvard in about 2012, Porter and Kramer, looks at bringing purpose together with financial viability and talking about delivering purpose with profit, and then deliberately growing that so you can deliver more purpose.

I think it’s a really important shared value, how you can deliver value to your shareholders, but really important to the broader community and bringing those constructs together. The reason why I like to talk about them together is that often, you’ll see people with a phenomenal idea, but if they can’t find a way to find that aligned area, they can never drive it to scale.

So, a lot of the work that we do at the Green Building Council is everyone we work with wants to do the right thing, but it’s about finding the different business models so they can actually take it to greater scale and therefore, implement more change.

Darren:

Look, I’ve just noticed the time. This has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down and share the work that you’ve been done with the Green Building Council of Australia.

Just a final question; you’ve seen the countdown clock for climate change. We’ve got about six years before 1.5 degrees, longer for two degrees — if you were a gambling person, which one do you think we’re going to achieve?

Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media, and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley and special guests. Find all the episodes here

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    Darren is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management. A Problem Solver, Negotiator, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3 - Marketing Management Consultants, founding member of the Marketing FIRST Forum and Author. He is also a Past-Chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, Ex-Medical Scientist and Ex-Creative Director. And in his spare time he sleeps. Darren's Bio Here Email: darren@trinityp3.com

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