Emma Terry is Chief Marketing Officer of Tourism Tasmania. Having worked in Australia and international markets in a range of industries from FMCG to NGO’s to professional services, Emma talks about the scenario planning she conducted to manage through the Pandemic. She talks about the impacts on her team, the changes to her marketing plans, and the flexibility required in communicating the ‘Come Down for Air’ brand platform as the visitor economy was impacted by border closures then re-openings.
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Transcription:
Anton:
Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
I’m Anton Buchner and today, I’m sitting down with Emma Terry, Chief Marketing Officer, or CMO for Tourism Tasmania. Welcome, Emma.
Emma:
Hi, Anton. Thank you for having me along.
Anton:
Well, you’re down in Tasmania. What’s it like today? Is it cold, warm, beautiful?
Emma:
It’s a mild day, typical autumn day here in Tassie.
Anton:
We met, I suppose, just after COVID, mid to late last year, 2020. And it was all around, I guess, coming out of COVID, marketers, obviously your borders had shut down. The borders had shut down and from a tourism perspective, like most businesses, lots of things had shut down and you’re just coming out of that and looking at marketing and the business and where it was all going.
So, I’d love to hear your thoughts today around what happened for Tourism Tasmania, what you learned, and then how you’re evolving and coming out of it now in 2021. How does that sound?
Emma:
Sounds good, Anton.
Anton:
Before we jump into it, Tourism Tasmania, of course, I know it’s, it’s a tourism body. But I guess many listeners may not know what actually does the tourism body do? So, what’s Tourism Tasmania responsible for?
Emma:
Well, I guess, each State tourism body may have a slightly different breadth. So, some State tourism bodies have industry development and support. Some have events, business events within their remit.
For Tourism Tasmania, our core role is to do demand generation for Tasmania. So, to encourage visitation. And I guess we will talk about our purposes as being to connect travelers emotionally and culturally, with our island, drive visitation and lead a sustainable visitor economy that delivers social environmental and economic value to all Tasmanians.
And here in Tasmania, we’ve got what we refer to it as the visitor economy. It was one of the first frameworks established in the country to think about tourism holistically and the impacts that it does have and how all different parts of government and industry can work together collectively to drive greater value for the State, for Tasmania in this sense.
So, Tourism Tasmania plays a really key leadership role in delivering on that strategy that gets delivered obviously around between government and industry. And we also have a role around access to the State. Being an island. You know, access is really important to think about it as you are the distribution channel in a sense within a tourism context.
So, that’s obviously air access as well as sea access. That also extends to infrastructure. So, from a Tourism Tasmania perspective, it’s more around visitation access, which supports not only visitors coming to the State, but obviously Tasmanians being able to have more flights to get out of the State as well. And then the marketing piece is really critical as well.
So, it’s all about activating and leading the Tasmanian tourism brand and how Tasmania is seen across Australia and internationally as well. And delivering and developing all of those marketing programs associated with that.
Anton:
A couple of weeks ago, I remember the Spirit of Tasmania was facing 16-metre seas or something, wasn’t it? In terms of coming across the crossing?
Emma:
They’re well-built ships and everyone’s super safe of course. But yes, the bass strait can be a bit interesting sometimes
Anton:
I’ve been across there and I’ve been to Tasmania a few times. I love it. Absolutely love it.
Emma:
So, it’s actually quite a good experience being on the boat. It’s a different way to start your holiday.
Anton:
It’s almost like you leave behind the work or whatever you’ve been doing and come to this emerald island. It’s really stunning.
Emma:
Yeah, I know. I think there’s something about travelling over the ocean as well, isn’t there? Even as a Tasmanian going to one of the islands, like King Island to Flinders Island, there is that idea of being over the ocean and then feeling like you’re in a completely different space.
Anton:
And were you born and bred, Tasmanian?
Emma:
I am Tasmanian, yes.
Anton:
What appealed to you about the role? You joined about four years ago as CMO, maybe four and a half years ago now.
Emma:
Almost four, not quite four.
Anton:
Almost four. What appealed to you about taking over the reins there?
Emma:
Well, I guess a couple of things. I mean, being Tasmanian and a marketer, and I’ve been super lucky to be able to grow my skills and career within Tasmania. I mean, it’s a little bit as people tend to do, but a bulk of my career has been in Tasmania.
And I’ve always marketed the State in different ways. Either itself in terms of whether it’s renewable energies or exporting. So, always Tasmania it sells its products and services. And so, being able to, I guess, have a broader impact in terms of the work that we do at Tourism Tasmania, which does connect into a whole range of industries, not just … I mean, for tourism itself, yes, it’s about holidaying, but when you’re holidaying, you’re experiencing the natural environment.
You’re experiencing food and beverage and makers, and arts and culture and all the rest of it. So, it’s a really super exciting opportunity to make all those connection points and drive greater value for Tasmania. So, being able to share that with like-minded people elsewhere as well is really important. So, that’s probably what excited me the most.
Tourism Tasmania has a really great reputation as well in terms of the creative work that it does. We’re not afraid to embrace who we are, as a State and represent that in our work. So, I mean, that’s pretty exciting both as a marketer, but also as a Tasmanian.
Anton:
I noticed for those that haven’t seen it before, but in 2019 you launched the Come Down For Air campaign which for anyone listening who hasn’t seen it, please Google around and find the ads. They’re really beautiful, from my perspective slow down ads or content that really engages me; to come down for air and slow down and come to that cool crisp, fresh environment.
How did you get to that position? And can you share a little bit around that campaign, that positioning?
Emma:
Yeah, sure. So, Tasmania’s always been really well known for its clean green image and its beautiful natural environment. And we are super lucky in that space. And it’s grown over the last 10 years or so in terms of our arts and culture scene, distilleries, food, providore-ness, all of those pieces.
And so, we wanted to pull that together. And that was something that was behind the scenery, which was quite a unique viewing campaign and quite a category disrupting piece as well. So, when I stepped into the role, we still had the different iterations of that in the market. So, that was a really brilliant piece of work as well. It got behind the place and showed you the people.
So, where do you take it from there? And I guess the thing was, how do you combine both of those things? So, the beautiful natural environment and all these other elements of Tasmania, that is about having a great experience and connecting into people and to place as well, and to produce.
So, we had been doing some work with Brand Tasmania. So, Tasmania is very lucky to have an authority set up around the Tasmanian brand. And they’d been doing a whole heap of work around interviewing Tasmanians across different areas of Tasmania, different backgrounds etc, around what Tasmania really means to them, and really getting under the surface of all of that.
In parallel to that, we were working in the tourism space and having that narrative. And so, we’re really lucky to be able to go, okay, the tourism narrative around how Tasmania I guess, is communicated to visitors actually links you to the place brand. It’s just a representation of that. And in fact, the brand Tasmania stuff, like the fonts, the logo were all the same, which is a really good outcome because it’s very hard to sometimes separate the two. It’s all part of the experience.
So, we used that. We also had done some segmentation around understanding what customers really need and come down for air, as I said, is the creative culmination of who we really truly are, that what customers really, really need and what Tasmania can deliver that’s distinct from elsewhere.
So, yes, it’s about literal air, space, etc, that Tasmania gives you. I mean, literally, when you step off the plane, there’s no walkways or anything, and it’s onto the tarmac and you do get that sense of the fresh air. And we have some of the cleanest air in the world from the Roaring Forties.
So, all of that is very true and it’s more than that. It’s headspace, it’s connection. It doesn’t have to be passive, it’s that air to just be yourself, to be more human, to reconnect with all those things that in modern life, we were losing touch with. But that’s really the centre for all of that.
Absolutely, when we launched it, it was about landing the feeling, hence the really paired back, deconstructed montages in a sense, and just focusing on those really key moments and the feeling it gives you and getting across that really unique Tasmanian point of view.
With our latest iteration over the Christmas period, that was really about showing that depth and breadth of experience and trying to… exploring the other parts of air. It’s not just about relaxation, it’s actually about reconnection and about whatever air needs to look like for you really.
Anton:
I think that plays as a bit of a point of differentiation. You see a lot of travel tourism advertising or communication that’s very busy with lots of stuff chucked in, and you can do this and you can do that. It almost feels quite functional, but I think what you’re describing is this real human emotionally-centred approach to promoting Tasmania.
Emma:
Yeah. We’ve got our winter program coming up and it’s got different energy to it. Because interestingly, winter is a season that Australians tend to try to avoid or endure and we know we’re a summer-biased country. But we’re missing out on some great experiences on some of that great human experience in different sensory things.
You’ve got that beautiful crisp air that does hit your lungs, but we have some amazing events over this period, and you can get to experience things that you can’t … as we do definitely have those seasons. So, that’s going to have a bit of different energy. It will be under Come Down For Air, but a different representation of that, and bring a little bit more activeness to what the Tasmanian proposition is.
Anton:
Very well. I think from my perspective, a Sydney sider, I’ve always known of Tasmania, I’ve been there a couple of times, I said. But it really is on the radar. Now, I’d say 8 out of 10 people I’m talking to in around my area where I live, you say, “Where are you going next?” “Oh, we’re going down to Tasmania. Going down to Tasmania.”
It seems to have a really lovely connection almost, I’d probably say a little bit in the New Zealand space. And their campaign is 100% Pure. But why travel New Zealand when you’ve got it on our doorstep and it’s Australia, but it’s a part of Australia we haven’t explored maybe.
Emma:
The New Zealand connection’s interesting, isn’t it? Because today, we have our first flight coming in from New Zealand, the first flight since the 2020 year, an international flight. This is pretty amazing considering.
Anton:
That’s incredible.
Emma:
Yeah. And you’re thinking, okay, well, why would New Zealanders come to Tasmania? Is it not similar? And look, there are definitely some similarities. They have amazing natural beauty as do we down here. They’ve got their own quirky point of view in life. You know, we’re both islands off a big island.
Anton:
So, how do you prove that to them? How do you entice them over?
Emma:
We’ve got that most foundational piece, which I think Tasmanians would love and New Zealanders would love of Tasmania. That’s where it ends. Like we’ve got a different history and heritage here, a different past, a different story, different wildlife, and a slightly different point of view on the world. That’s been forged and shaped by all that.
Different produce, different arts and culture scenes. So, there’s plenty for New Zealanders to discover we’re part of Australia, absolutely. But a different experience within the Australian context as well.
Anton:
And you’re testing while you’re looking at all, I guess, the media mix or your channel mix post-COVID, has that changed your thinking in the type of advertising or the type of channels you’re using?
Emma:
Absolutely. I guess you look at the channels based on what you’re trying to achieve. And one of the things that is definitely … what we’ve had to look at over the whole period was how are we trying to engage with our customers. And certainly, during the lockdown, you can’t exactly say, come down for air when borders are closed and you’ve got to be really careful around that messaging for people as well.
But people still want to engage and dream about all that as well. So, social channels became much more important over that period of time. And we wanted to do something that was about giving back as well. So, we all watched a series of moments of calm, both in Australia and in New Zealand and in the rest of the international markets that we target.
And that was really, really well received because people were locked down, stuck in houses all the time. And so, actually being able to do a slow walk through with a waterfall and those types of things actually gave back a little bit and allowed us to reinforce the brand.
We also did … certainly our flexibility has been really critical changing hotspots and border closures in different States, etc, lockdowns, having to make sure you’re adjusting accordingly. I guess, two things for us as a, I guess, a government organisation as well ─ one is that we’re supporting … that we’re not undermining the government advice of the day and that we’re actually in line with that.
But also understanding where customers are at and wanting to be really sensitive to their needs and what they’re experiencing at the time as well. So, we did a media first … it’s just our products launch more broadly with our media agency initiative and JCDecaux, which was around programmatic out-of-home which was great for us in the sense of it’s measurable and allowed us to be able to geo-fence things, change up creative. We needed to be really flexible around it as well.
So, that was a really successful part of our campaign when we were back out in the market.
Anton:
They’re testing in several States on the mainland or?
Emma:
Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, in most of the major states of Australia and yeah, being able to absolutely drill down to not even State-based, city-based but postcodes within those cities as well. Yeah, but I think that that technology has been really, really useful and timely as well in that sense.
Anton:
You talked about the shutdown, the close-downs. I just want to take us back a minute just for the listeners, because I think we’re all a little bit sick of the word, maybe COVID, but the learnings are interesting.
If we go back to that period, tourism stopped. We understand that borders shut. As a CMO, what were you faced with? What were the decisions that you were faced with in terms of marketing?
Emma:
Yeah, look, what a crazy period. As CMO, considering a range of things, it’s the team and how are they doing it, and how do we transition the actual team itself. You’ve obviously got your customers and where are they at and what that’s looking like.
In our case, our industry, which was absolutely in crisis, the revenue streams ─ I know this happened across a range of industries. Tourism was particularly hard-hit as well. And probably for a longer and more bumpy period of time.
So, they’re in crisis. We’ve got to get people off the island, we’ve got to manage all of those communications pieces, absolutely in step with public health advice, make sure our industry know what they can and can’t do over that period of time.
So, you had lots of things in the mix. So, we had campaign work planned which we had to pause. No one’s really been through anything like that in our living memory and history to draw upon it from a precedent and from a tourism perspective.
And I know it goes beyond tourism, but last year, we had bush fires earlier in that year. And for a while, we didn’t have any major bush fires here in Tasmania. The flow-on effects from domestic travel and also international as well. It was a really challenging start to the year as well.
So, you’re coming off the back of that and going into how are we adjusting accordingly and then going into COVID. So, yeah, it was honestly pretty tricky.
And then it’s like, okay, take stock, what are we going to do with our program? What can we do with our program? Should we be marketing? Should we not be marketing? What do you do in this situation?
We’ve all seen the research with brands that go dark, don’t recover as well. What’s the right balance of all of those pieces? So yeah, you’re considering all of that. But really the focus was on getting the team right, working from home and just setting that up, making sure they’ve got the right support.
Many of our team members had family obviously living interstate and overseas, even very close, loved ones. So, there’s obviously all that human piece that everyone had gone through and the challenge of change and the rest of it.
And then from a program perspective, yes, the old pivot. Crisis communications were a critical thing up front, but then we’d gotten into the point of, okay, well, what do we think this is going to look like? What are our assumptions? How can we plan accordingly?
Did lots of scenario planning. I’m sure everyone has done that. I planned everything apart from a lockdown that would last for several years, in which case, if that’s the case, you obviously adjust. That would change the game completely. So, that was quite good because when we actually started to have borders opening and closing, which we did back in October last year, it was all still very changeable. It allowed us to be able to go, okay, what’s our decision making here? Is it to change out a creative? Is it actually a pause of activity? What does this look like? And the first couple of decisions were a little clunky, but then you start getting into a rhythm around how you adjust the program.
We reworked our media spending campaigns and our Initiative were an amazing support for us over this period of time in our team.
We learned how to buy media based on particular areas rather than full States, and break that down a lot more. So, there was definitely some good learnings that we collectively had together in that as well.
Anton:
So, the teams, I mean, they had to be pretty resilient. It sounds like most other marketing departments, things were thrown in the air, teams had to muck in and do things they’d probably never done before. Is that right within your team? It was really just people rallying together to get things done?
Emma:
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it’s a good opportunity, isn’t it? To break, some of that muscle memory and have to do things in a different way. And I think as we’re coming into now, things normalizing a little bit more … it looks like everyone’s talking about ─ I think it’ll be how do you not fall back into muscle memory, but we can talk about that a little bit later.
Yeah, so it’s definitely the ‘mucking in’ thing was really important, everyone just delivering the program. What I’m most proud about, I guess, you could say over that period of time was we just didn’t do knee-jerk things for the sake of it.
Like we weren’t panicked and scrambling in that sense. Considering we had borders locked down for a while, you’d think there’d be heaps of space, but we’ve worked really hard over the last 12 or so months. And that was really based on, we knew our industry was hurting. We want to be able to be ready for when borders open again.
So, all of our programs have been quite strategic. They’ve got a longer-term piece. We’ve been really true to our brand over that period of time. We’ve launched Self-drive Touring, which we’ve been working on for a couple of years, obviously weadjust the way we take it to market based on the environment. But the strategy piece was still solid.
Even our Unordinary Adventures, which includes fly fishing and mountain biking and walking and golf ─ we’ve been able to deliver on all of those commitments to our industry and those strategies and programs that we’ve had in the trench for a little while. So, I feel like they’ve all been really solid foundations for us rather than just, “Oh my gosh, we’re running from one campaign to the next, just trying a whole heap of stuff and not staying true to what our medium-term objectives are and our brand.
Anton:
Yeah, and I think as you said earlier, some of those value pieces you did during COVID, which were just nice visuals or whatever it might’ve been. As you said, just again, very true to your brand, very true to the strategy and direction you’re going.
Emma:
So, this was our first real partnership with our regional tourism organisations to do something for Tasmanians, which was an absolute joy. It was like a quick turnaround and a lot of pressure, but being able to work with brand Tas and develop with a local agency and make yourself at home, which was all about tapping into that Tasmanian psyche and taking that pride that Tasmanians have in their State. And then being able to translate that into making them feel confident and comfortable to get out and about when things were just opening up again and State borders were closed, but you were able to travel around the States ─ that was in June, July last year.
So, getting that balance right between that level of confidence, pride, comfort, and getting people moving around the State. And Tasmania has really responded.
Anton:
The State, fantastic. I think you have … was it around 1.5 million domestic travellers coming from outside the State? So, I guess, the shifting audiences, as you said, focusing more on the Tasmanians.
Emma:
Yeah, 1.3, but that included international as well. It was about 1.1 for domestic. So yeah, but Tasmanians have always been quite good at travelling around. We do quite well in terms of the number of trips we take within the State, but certainly, that’s definitely increased over COVID.
Anton:
You’ve got such a great product as you’ve been talking about, and you’ve just skipped over a couple of words there, I’ll put you back on; Unordinary Adventures, Self-drive Holidays. So, you’ve got a great product. Do you think it’s about just telling that story, or is it more around creating these other packages or other pieces to the story?
Emma:
Good question. Every good marketer should be asking themselves that because it’s like where do you put energy and effort?
I don’t think it’s one or the other. I mean, I think there’s a piece around the destination. Tassie is really interesting, we have a good awareness of the State. I think people are familiar, but not familiar with Tasmania, and it can be a little tricky to plan. So, we definitely think there are some barriers there.
We remained on people’s bucket lists for whatever reason that is. We’re only an hour-and-a-half flight from Sydney ─ maybe flight connectivity could be part of it all. That’s obviously dramatically improved over recent years. And obviously, we have some seasonality, but it’s a wintery holiday. It’s not a hard winter holiday. Like it’s still fairly mild here in the scheme of things.
So yeah, there’s definitely some barriers that make Tasmania just a little bit harder to make a choice to go to. But once people come here obviously, they really love it. Which is great.
Probably the reasons for travelling change over time as well, much more people are pursuing more their passion points again, these days as well. So, unordinary adventures are like looking at where we’ve got those amazing experiences that stand up in an international environment.
So, amazing walking trails here, really iconic walks, our golf courses are world-class, some of the best in the world. And they’re designed in a way that … all of our experiences workaround and with nature.
Anton:
Yeah, a good friend of mine lost a lot of balls around Barnbougle a few days ago.
Emma:
Yeah. The King Island courses are pretty hard and challenging. So, if you’re up for it, then that’s quite a good experience. So, that’s Unordinary Adventures.
And Self-driving, there’s always been really popular self-drive terrain.
The government have been working on it and we’ve been working for a few years now with industry as well. Some great new drive journeys, which we really fast-tracked the development of those. The last one was due to launch in June this year. We launched them all in September to the Tasmanians to road test them first and then out into the interstate market in February. So, we wanted to bring that forward a bit and give people that opportunity.
Anton:
Well, the word is subtly getting out there because the people I’m talking to are good campers and whether it’s Camplify or their own campers; there’s about 8 or 10 people I’ve heard in the last couple of weeks, who’ve gone on drive holidays or were about to go on drive holidays down to Tassie. So, it’s working, I think I’m the next one, I’m going to get my camper off Camplify, borrow someone’s caravan and come on down.
Emma:
Yeah, cool, good on you. Plenty to see down here. I mean we’re a compact island. So, you can get a mountain and sea experience within 20 minutes of each other, which is pretty amazing.
Anton:
Hobart to Launceston is only … is about an hour and a half or-?
Emma:
Two … two and a quarter, yeah, we’re compact. It’s not always straight highways either, so it can take a little bit longer than people anticipate to get around Tassie. But the experience that you have around the landscape, as you do that, it’s pretty amazing.
Anton:
So, I’m wondering then, talking about all this is making me want to travel. Hopefully, our listeners are also going, “Wow, I’ve got to book a trip straight away.” But I’m wondering what success is like for you. So, what are you doing as a team, what’s your eye looking forward to 12 months or 24 months ahead? What does success look like?
Emma:
Yeah, good question. And particularly in this environment and context, isn’t it?
Anton:
Is it too far out to think like that?
Emma:
Well, I don’t know. I think you’ve always got an aspiration into the future and some things are changeable around that and some things aren’t
I think over this period of time, from a personal perspective, but also work, it makes you stop and just reflect, doesn’t it? Like to reflect on how things are going and what’s really, truly valuable and what’s not.
We’re here to be able to tell the story of what a Tasmanian tourism experience would look like, and connect people within that, let them have that cultural experience, that connection through to Tasmania. So, that’s obviously continuing to be important. We need that industry to be here to be able to service that.
So, recovery for them around visitation and spend and being able to sustain that visitor economy is a really critical one for us.
And then, around the team’s perspective is how do we keep delivering the right message that is Tasmania? How do we be really true to that? How do we understand where … it’s the classic stuff, but I think maybe if you have a bit more focus, I think it becomes those connection points are even more important. The ability to collaborate and have that human connection is even more amplified as we go forward.
And I should say that after a big disruption, there’s always I think a big step up in a sense of how you might want to go about doing things. And for our team, we’re embarking on our digital transformation, so that’s really going to change the way we work. And we’ve got to get the balance between that and obviously that human connection piece as well and make sure that we’re still doing really great work that makes people feel something and has the Tasmanian story.
So, yeah. So, what does success look like? I guess it’s recovering demand, visitation for our industry and pushing ourselves further to do great work. I think we’ve done great work, but I feel like we’re only scratching the surface of where we could take this to, where we could take Come Down for Air. It’s about setting the team up to be able to do their best work as well. And it shouldn’t look like it did before.
Anton:
It feels like to me, listening to that, that it’s giving you a real focal point to say that obviously, international ─ take New Zealand out of the discussion for a minute – but people aren’t travelling overseas as much.
So, there’s a real focus now on domestic travel, interstate travel, which may be for you has given a real focus and a focal point to the team as to what to prioritise, what to focus on. And as you said, look at some of the bigger bets and just get those done really well, but keep pushing the boundaries.
Emma:
Absolutely. I think you just want to do meaningful work, don’t you? Like you want to have a real impact and be true as well. I think that’s probably where we’ve really focused, decided to really focus on. I think we could all get really caught up in the shiny things and the busyness of comms; more content, put more content out, do this stuff.
But actually, being able to step back from all of that and reflect on that and go, what’s really important here, and what’s going to make a difference is the challenge. And how do you keep that space open and not get back into the busyness or the muscle memory of all of that?
Anton:
How do you handle that? That was a really good point, there. How do you handle that?
Emma:
I think it’s about a reset, isn’t it? Like for me, it’s about how we go about setting the objectives. Like what’s our strategy, what are our objectives? What are we getting the team to focus on? How do we do our program planning? How do you plan it in a smart way that allows space for creativity, curating different ideas, planning well in advance, etc?
It’s been a really ─ and I think most marketers would say this – it has been a really busy period of time, just because of the change and the effort and stuff it takes. So, how do you reset that and focus on the right areas?
And take those learnings, I think as things settle and those new norms set in a little bit more, then you find that different rhythm.
But I think it’s also a good wake up call for everyone, isn’t it? In terms of that things are disruptive and you do have to adapt and you can’t just set and forget. You’ve got to get that balance between, focus on what you’re doing and the learnings and stuff and pushing forward, but not just doing that for the sake of it either. Like you’ve got to get that balance right, the tension point between that.
Anton:
It sounds like you’ve got a lot of exciting things on your plate, which is great to hear. Awesome to have a chat, Emma. Thanks so much for your time.
Emma:
A pleasure, Anton.
Anton:
I think you’ve got a very exciting 12 months ahead of you. So, I’ll hopefully get down there in the next couple of months if I can.
Emma:
Great. Well, you’re welcome anytime. And I hope you enjoy Tassie. It’s beautiful coming into the winter months as well.
Anton:
Great. Well, thanks again, Emma. Just before we go, I’ve got one more question before we run out of time. I’ve heard rumours of a bridge being built to the mainland. Can you make any comments?
Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media, and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley and special guests. Find all the episodes here