Managing Marketing: The importance of measuring performance in digital marketing

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Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Founder and Global CEO, Darren Woolley. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

Luke Brown is CEO and co-founder of Affinity and here he discusses with Darren their approach to digital advertising and the importance in clearly defining business and marketing success upfront and developing a strategy and optimising the execution against that objective.

measuring performance in digital marketing

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Transcription:

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing and this week I’m joined by Luke Brown, CEO and co-founder of agency Affinity here in Sydney. Welcome, Luke.

Luke:

Thanks, Darren.

Darren:

Luke, I’ve read some of the opinion pieces that you’ve recently been placing in the trade press or trade media and I’ve been really impressed by your view of the marketing landscape but particularly one of the topics I wanted to discuss with you is that we’ve seen digital advertising grow and grow and grow for the last decade.

It’s been the darling of marketers. Everyone’s been talking about how terrific digital marketing is (and media) except in the last month or so. Suddenly it’s like the demon and everyone’s pointing the finger at how it’s ripping all the marketers off. What do you think’s happened?

Luke:

That’s a really good question. We believe that digital is a really incredibly powerful tool but it’s definitely been over-hyped and often oversold. It’s not a silver bullet for every situation.

Darren:

It is horses for courses, isn’t it? One of the things that cracks me up is the fact that so many people in the industry talk about it as if it’s either or. You either do digital or you stay the old-fashioned traditional. Whoever said it was a choice between one or the other?

Luke:

There is also this fallacy that digital is going to be cheaper for you and that is just insanity. The thing about digital is it takes increasing effort to optimise it and you need to put that time and resource into it otherwise you won’t get the outcome that you need at the end of it.

Darren:

One of the great things about the internet is that it has democratised the ability for people to be able to create content and put it out there as a way of attracting attention and engagement for their business. So, it is a channel that any business, small, medium or large, can actually access.

I remember in the television only days you were either a television advertiser because you had the big bucks or you weren’t. In that way it has provided access to a mass medium, hasn’t it?

Luke:

It definitely has and we work with a lot of smaller clients and we’ve been able to take them and scale them through digital more so than they would have been able to in any other medium because of the cost of entry but it’s about the smarts you put into it. And how you measure it and making sure that you’re driving to an outcome.

And I think that’s where too often people look at digital as a traditional media and it’s all about reach and frequency and that’s all there is to it. And that’s where they fall down because digital is beyond reach and frequency.

You can’t just look at the views that you get from something and let’s face it a view in Facebook is three seconds and without audio what is that really doing for your brand? YouTube is five seconds—that’s slightly better before the skip and you can pay for longer. You’re at least getting a little better metric but at the end of the day so what?

If you’re not tracking, ‘are you meeting your business outcomes?’, and that’s something that we’re really quite strong at here: really forcing how we’re going to measure outcomes and know that it’s working. Not months down the track when the cash register starts singing but straight away.

The marketing and sales opportunity of digital

Darren:

That’s one of the things I really like about the opinion you’ve been putting into the market place: that ultimately marketing is about changing behaviour or attitudes to deliver outcomes. But marketers who buy digital the same way as they bought television and press—cost per thousand—aren’t they actually missing the whole point of the opportunity that digital provides?

Luke:

Exactly, it’s a completely different medium and people are stuck in the 20th century paradigm about reach and frequency and digital can do so much more. And you need to look at direct correlations to a business goal not just a digital goal.

Who cares about likes and shares and other things? We need to bring it back down to the business goal at all times.

Darren:

My personal opinion is that digital is not necessarily good at getting mass reach and frequency fast. Television still performs very well. For all the stories about TV being dead a good television campaign can get you lot of awareness. What it can’t get you is any sort of engagement. Wouldn’t you agree?

Luke:

Totally, and with some of our clients we’re going to be submitting an Effie for them this year. We’ve programmatically built their brand through digital—through programmatic trading. And now we’re at a stage where we’ve got them enough money so they can be on TV so they can take that next level in their journey.

And so, digital has really enabled a lot of the smaller players who couldn’t ever really get to TV to come on a journey and grow and get to a television status brand.

Darren:

That’s brilliant because I talk to so many digital agencies that seem to think that it has to be digital from end to end, like, beginning, middle, and end—it’s all digital. They’re the ones that go, ‘oh, TV’s dead—no one’s watching TV’, which is just garbage. I don’t know why they say it.

Luke:

I don’t know either. Partly, I think because people don’t have competence in that area. Something that we’ve always understood as marketing professionals, our goal is not to sell out client an ad. In fact, that’s not our goal at all. It’s whatever is the right thing that they need. And sometimes, yes, it will be a TVC.

Darren:

If they can afford it and it’s right for what they’re trying to achieve.

Luke:

And if it’s going to be the most efficient thing for delivering it if they have the budget. But there are often a lot smarter things along the path to sale you can do that will influence your sales a lot more and then, yes, if you’ve got budget left over TV is a wonderful thing.

Certainly, our client mix has changed considerably over the last 18 months. We’re picking up bigger and bigger clients and TV is a right mix for them and certainly some of our smaller clients we’ve grown –they’ve got scale behind them now as products. They’re triple the size they were when they first met us and now they’re looking at other ways to get to the next level of growth.

Darren:

And that makes sense. You’ve actually taken them on this progression and at each stage used the appropriate channel to fulfil on strategy and deliver the objectives.

Luke:

Exactly. And we won’t be abandoning digital for them now that we’re doing their first TV campaign. Digital is a core part of the mix for them. It’s helped them grow 300 %.

The role of digital in generating leads and sales

Darren:

A lot of people use that term ‘a core part of the mix’ and I always get really disappointed because what they mean by that is, ‘yes, we’re going to take the TV ad and we’re going to put it out through digital’. And to me all that means is you’ve got multiple channels and you’re just pushing the same bit of content out.

‘Yes, we’ve made a TV ad – look it’s on YouTube’. ‘oh, look, we’re delivering it programmatically’ but it’s all broadcast, broadcast, broadcast. I remember back in the mid 90s being a creative director when people started talking about the internet the great promise of the internet was interactivity.

Luke:

Exactly.

Darren:

So you run a TV ad to get awareness but you immediately design it in a way that it funnels people online into a digital realm where you can then start to interact with them and move them forward down the ubiquitous sales funnel.

Luke:

Exactly, and see what gates they’re going through. And over time you’re able to understand that if they do certain actions you know that they’ll end up buying product from you. And that’s the measurement people need to put in place to have effective marketing nowadays.

But often it’s not even about the digital things. You need to do stuff in-store. The work that’s being done in-store now is still stuck in a 20th century paradigm that we’re not really putting a lot of effort and energy in there and there’s a range of things that we can do to digitise that experience as well.

But also make sure that we’re delivering a better customer experience throughout the entire process online and offline.

Darren:

There is quite a lot of focus on the last 2, 5, or 10 metres, the last 15 seconds where the customer actually makes the purchase decision but I wonder sometimes whether people are actually thinking about the customer experience there or they’re just working out how they can ram the brand down their throat.

Luke:

Is it consistent all the way through from when they’re online or they’re on TV and they go online and then through the funnel stages?

Darren:

I just want to pull you up there because I’m really interested in what you mean by ‘consistent’, because so many people interpret consistent as being the same. What do you mean by being consistent?

Luke:

For me it’s not necessarily the same but there’s a tonality and a strategic underpinning of your messaging that needs to be consistent. And what we see with other agencies or the way clients are set up with multiple agencies is there is a massive fragmentation in messaging and it’s almost a disconnect that the online experience is different to the TV ad, which is different to the in-store experience.

They’re not giving you a consistent path to sale and they’re not laddering on each other to ensure you end up buying the product.

Darren:

The idea of having the same collars or cuffs or matching set of suitcases—the whole Tosca range of suitcases, from my perspective, diminishes potentially the power of each channel or each environment. The old days of ‘we’ll just take a frame out of the TV ad and put that into any print material and we’ll have the same line running across’.

Luke:

Oh, Darren that’s integrated, isn’t it?

Darren:

Yeah, it’s integrated and consistent. We’ll even take the audio track from TV and that’ll become radio—it’ll now run on Pandora. But they may not see the TV. Aren’t you under-utilising each medium?

Luke:

Again, going back to trying to deliver to the same goal but yes bring it to life the right way in each medium but it’s a funnel and how you’re driving people through that funnel and the experiences that you give them.

Digital does allow that great ability to give you experiences along the way to self-classify, to work out which product, as part of the range, that you are. That funnel gives you signals as to how you should re-market to them as well or how to evolve sequence messaging to them to make sure that they convert.

Darren:

Yeah, I think that consistency as you said is in things like tonality and purpose. What’s the intent? What am I trying to do here to move people? Now you use funnel. You might recall I have a science background.

I like the idea of it being a particle accelerator and the reason I like that is I think of customers as electrons. They’re full of energy and they’re flying around all over the place. ‘Oh my god they’re living a life’.

So, at the start of the particle accelerator you need lots of energy to be able to collect as many of those electrons into creating a beam but then as you accelerate them along there to get them to the point they’re actually going to purchase, you change from using sheer energy and power to more finesse and a more strategic approach.

So, you start from very wide and powerful but then as you focus that beam on your ultimate objective, which is getting people to buy, you need to turn the power down a bit. You don’t want to keep accelerating them wildly.

You want to get them focused on what they need to do and if they start diverging off that path what do you subtly need to do to bring them back onto the ultimate destination.

Luke:

Exactly.

Darren:

Do you like that metaphor?

Luke:

I do indeed. Talking a lot with our clients–funnels work because everyone understands them and they can measure things straight through but I do like the metaphor. For us we try and think in terms of behavioural nudges through the digital process and that’s what we’re doing.

We’re not arrogant enough to think that we can change behaviour. It’s not about that and there are a lot of agencies out there saying, ‘the goal of all your marketing is behavioural change’.

Our goal is to actually influence behaviour and that’s a semantic difference but it’s important because to influence existing behaviour you’re much more likely to get an outcome. And our best work–we won five Effie’s last year—and it was because we were able to influence existing behaviour rather than really trying to change people’s behaviour.

Darren:

It’s interesting as well because changing behaviour exists in a moment of time.

Luke:

Exactly.

Darren:

There’ll be a time that I was doing this behaviour and then after that point in time I’m now doing this behaviour. Whereas what you’re talking about is on a continuum, is constantly nudging the behaviour along.

Luke:

Understanding what their actual behaviour is now and that’s where digital is so amazing that you can really understand what people are doing moment to moment and understanding what they’re consuming and then that gives you nudge points of being able to push them into different actions and you can see them do that as well.

Direct marketing strategies in a digital world

Darren:

You’re talking now like a direct marketer. I know things like direct marketing have sort of disappeared over time but Lester Wunderman wrote books about being able to nudge the customer along the path to purchase but the only tools he had were pools of typists typing personalised letters and mailing them out and waiting for a response.

In the digital age we can respond literally in response to a customer’s behaviour, can’t we?

Luke:

Exactly, and Lester would’ve loved to have had the tools we have now and certainly what is old is new again. There is certainly a lot about direct marketing that we apply every day but for us, behavioural science shows how we can nudge people along and we use a lot of behavioural science in what we do in order to get an outcome that we’re after.

Darren:

A lot of people talk about behavioural science. How do you actually apply it? I know it’s incredibly complex but there are some basic behavioural science principles. The seminal book for me was ‘Predictably Irrational’ because suddenly you started to understand that classical economics (the idea that people react in a rational way) is actually completely flawed. Anyone that observes the human condition can see that.

I love the concept that we’re absolutely irrational in our decision-making process but the beauty is that we’re predictable in that irrationality.

Luke:

Exactly. For me what’s interesting is the measurement we can do now on what people are actually doing is able to prove that we’re irrational. It’s able to prove a whole range of things and that enables us to be smarter with our messaging and over time with our conversion. And at the end of the day that’s what it’s got to be about.

The backlash against digital marketing

Darren:

So going back to where we started, which is people seem to have turned on marketers, the industry — I read one of Mark Ritson’s things, ‘brand safety is all caused by Google’ and things like that. Everyone’s pointing the finger.

It’s really at that top end of awareness where it’s all gone wrong rather than the approach along the funnel to conversion.

Luke:

Predominantly, and you’ve got to ask who broke these stories? It was old school publishers trying to get people back into their medium. Call me cynical but I think it was the Times and The Guardian in London trying to get people back into them and this conversation needs to be had. And there are things we need to do better as an industry so I’m glad it’s been had.

Darren:

But is this a conversation? It just feels like a whole lot of finger pointing.

Luke:

There was a whole range of clients that pulled out of YouTube and that lasted all of a week. They’re back on now. We had one of our clients who was affected by it. I think it was only three days before they reversed their decision and went back on.

Darren:

But that’s a knee-jerk reaction, isn’t it?

Luke:

Yeah but it’s built up in this hysteria, ‘our ads are feeding ISIS’.

Darren:

I remember I was in London when that Times story broke how all these big brand ads were appearing on websites for terrorist organisations and criminal organisations and certainly the traditional news have been beating it up like you wouldn’t believe and they’ve called it ‘brand safety’.

But the guys at ID Comms in London had a really powerful shift on that: ‘It’s not about brand safety; it’s about brand care’ because if you care about your brand you would have considered this. This whole issue has become a big issue in the last few months. I first read about it in Digiday in 2012 so that’s five years ago they were talking about it and raising it as an issue then.

Luke:

And if you tool your programmatic tools correctly you can avoid any of this through the platforms themselves. You just have to work really hard at it.

The focus on results and performance metrics

Darren:

If you care enough you’ll actually make sure that your programmatic algorithm tries to avoid as much as possible the wrong environment.

Luke:

We’ve all seen that classic YouTube clip of one of the ocean liners in the Mediterranean on its side and next to it is P&O or one of those trying to sell cruises (I think it’s one of their ships actually).

I think that happened in 2012. From that moment onwards the industry really focused or should have been focusing on brand safety and there are some really basic measures that they could have done to avoid that. And I’m surprised, to be honest, that some of the big brands have been caught up on terrorist websites.

Darren:

But isn’t the fact that often marketers are sending dual messages about what’s most important to them? Let me explain. So, you’re my agency. I want you to deliver as many people as possible at the lowest cost possible and I want you to make sure it doesn’t appear on a damaging environment. But in actual fact, of the two things, which is more important to me—lowest cost or safest environment? Because there is a trade-off isn’t there?

Luke:

We could stop that conversation right there and say, ‘what is the outcome that you want?’

Darren:

I just want lots of people to see my ad.

Luke:

And we’d say, ‘no, that’s not good enough for us and let’s talk about what sort of conversion we’re expecting from this activity and how we’re going to measure that’ rather than views because it is meaningless when it comes to digital.

Somebody said recently, ‘you’ve got more chance being bitten by a shark than clicking on a banner ad’. I don’t personally believe in that because if you tool your media correctly and if you have good creative in your banner ads—we’re getting well over the industry average.

Darren:

0.5

Luke:

No, one to two percent levels.

Darren:

That is impressive considering it’s like .00000

Luke:

So, if you tool your digital correctly, you have the right target audience and you’re getting what we normally associate with a direct marketing response from old school of one to two percent and that’s what we’re seeing in a lot of our digital activity. And we’re tracking that through to not just how many people arrive on the next site.

Darren:

And that’s just in a burst, a programme of programmatic serving? Retargeting you’d have a much higher conversion rate, wouldn’t you?

Luke:

Definitely. Oh, click-through rate but then we’re working to conversion rates and so that’s why we always start moving on from views or other things into more meaningful things about how we’re meeting their business objectives.

Darren:

Leads and conversions and costs per lead and costs per conversion.

Luke:

And some of it’s difficult to do because they’re sold through third party sales areas so we need to work out other surrogate measures along the way and that’s part of our IP. If we see those measures being hit we know that we’re well on the way to getting a sale.

Darren:

I was talking to a consumer goods client. They sell all their products through retailers across Asia and the question they had was, ’how much should I be spending on digital media?’ And I said, ‘well what do you want to achieve?’ ‘Oh, I need awareness’. ‘Well, will digital be best for you?’ ‘Yeah, we believe so’.

‘Why do you believe so?’ ‘Well, television’s fragmented and we can’t afford to get the reach and frequency so we’ve just been topping it up with digital’ and well, I’m a bit concerned (this is a warning bell going off) and I said, ‘Well, what do you measure?’ ‘Oh, just impressions’.

And I went ‘eerrr, eerrr, eerrr’. Wow. One of my colleagues in the U.S emailed me a brief and I swear I’ve read this brief. Budget was like $200,000; task—do more digital stuff. That was the brief to the agency: we need more digital stuff.

Luke:

Fantastic. I’d love a brief like that. And then we’d take it and work it and do something meaningful. But impressions is just so ridiculous and you’re opening yourself up to ad fraud if you don’t have a meaningful way of getting down to an attribution point somewhere in your funnel. Ad fraud and viewabilty are all issues that are going to come into play for you.

But if you’re looking down the funnel and how to set up some ROI benchmarks for your digital activity you’ll be able to weed out a lot of the ad fraud and a lot of the viewability issues because it just won’t perform. It can’t perform. There will always be ad fraud unfortunately just like there will always be spam. It doesn’t matter how much we make it illegal everyone gets it every day.

What we can do is be smarter with how we measure things so you can turn it off when things aren’t working and that’s the marketer’s responsibility and frankly, it’s our responsibility as an agency to show clients the way: ‘this is how we’re going to measure it. This is going to be a more meaningful impact for you’ and they’ll see it in their sales once we hit some surrogates or other things. We have ways to convert offline to online and online to offline.

Darren:

Through attribution?

Luke:

Attribution modelling and through digital footprints and other things depending on the client. So, those things are really powerful and then that starts all of a sudden unlocking business case with the client organisation to say, ‘we need to spend more money on this’.

I think one of the things that people have found in digital is they haven’t resourced it appropriately. There’s a feeling that it’s cheap to do. It’s not cheap to do well necessarily. And that ongoing optimisation is required. We don’t get those click-through rates straight out of the gate. That’s how we’ve optimised over time.

That takes time and effort and some of our clients value that and they pay us for that but they can see the outcome at the end and that’s why.

The benefits of focusing on performance and results

Darren:

Well, they’re paying for the result not the effort.

Luke:

Exactly, and that’s why we’re moving more of our clients to performance based remuneration because we can see the data.

Darren:

Yaaay. You’re playing my song.

Luke:

And frankly we prefer it because we get remunerated more. There’s less risk from the client’s point of view and we have the upside in knowing the data parts we can see the results. There’s nowhere to hide.

Darren:

Now I’ve got a question for you. Inside the agency does that performance based focus improve morale? Does it have any impact on the way people work on clients?

Luke:

It has a huge impact. Everyone’s so vested in making that campaign a success.

Darren:

The activity.

Luke:

We’ve banned that word but everyone here is vested in making that work for the client and whether it’s copywriters or our business analysts they want to bring it to the table for the client every day. And they’re high-fiving each other when we hit a new high.

Darren:

That’s brilliant because when you can get a group of people aligned to an objective—it’s incredibly powerful.

Luke:

It is.

Darren:

And one of the things we see in so many relationships is that the client, the advertiser and the agency, think that they’re aligned because the agency will say, ‘your success is our success’ but without that real focus, that laser focus on what success looks like, what ends up happening is the client has one objective and the agency has something completely different.

Often the default point is to do some award-winning work so that we can all celebrate together.

Luke:

‘Isn’t that exciting that we’ve won this award?’ But no business result happened whatsoever and that frustrates us a lot. Everyone here whether they’re a creative or a business analyst or the media team or strategy guys –we’ve bought into a culture which is about continual improvement for our clients.

One of the reasons why we’ve banned the word ‘campaign’ is because campaign implies a launch and leave mentality—you put it out there and…

Darren:

Hope like hell.

Luke:

Then at the end of three months you do a post-campaign report and go, ‘gee, did that work or not?’ as opposed to the weekly changes to the campaign, changing out copy lines, changing out things.

Darren:

So you’re actually deploying what is very close to an agile marketing process aren’t you?

Luke:

Yes, that’s what we’re doing.

The role of Agile Marketing in delivering performance

Darren:

A lot of marketers talk about agile marketing but then when we talk to them about what that actually means: this idea of testing and learning, constantly optimising, not working on campaigns but always ‘on’, to think about it as building long-term interactive relationships with customers through these activities—they go, ‘oh, that’s not what I thought agile meant. I thought it meant doing what we’ve always done but faster’.

But you are actually deploying an agile philosophy and process.

Luke:

We are. It’s a different way of working and one of the things we actually had to do to start working this way is disband the typical copywriter/art director pairing and sometimes on some jobs we’ll have a business analyst and a copywriter working together to get the outcome that is required or certainly in the top-ups that are required in the campaign.

For us, we’re in an exciting new world but we still see around us that there are too many people just waiting to the end. One of our clients (we don’t do their media for them—a big media agency does) and we’re always surprised that there’s literally no optimisation throughout the entire campaign.

They haven’t run little experiments throughout to see what works and what doesn’t and where they should be placing the money.

Darren:

A bit of AB testing, some multi-variants etc.—nothing?

Luke:

Nothing, and the same campaign output they got in the first week is what they’ve achieved at the end of the campaign and that to me is (I don’t want to quote Trump but) sad. That really is.

Darren:

It’s incredibly disappointing because it means that only half of the process is actually being optimised.

Luke:

Exactly.

Darren:

So, half the money is being left on the table.

Luke:

That’s inexcusable today and I think if we get better at attribution and clients understand what that means (and that’s the point of the article I wrote) people are looking for a magic bullet. The better we get at attributing ROI to business goal, in terms of business activity the better we’ll get at managing it.

Moving beyond cost to value and performance

Darren:

This obsession with cost. I’ve been doing this for 17 years and it’s like the last 10 or 15 years everything’s about the cost of marketing: how can we reduce the cost of marketing? And the downside of that is that it first of all assumes that marketing is a cost not an investment, because if you don’t measure the return on your investment it becomes a cost.

The second is that marketing is a commodity because you only buy things on cost if it’s a commodity. Imagine buying books by the kilo irrelevant as to what’s in it and even when you start buying media on cost alone (and I use this metaphor a lot) –‘you want to have a birthday party—there’s 100 people you’d love to have there.

Two agencies come. One says, ‘we’ll get the 100 people that you want but it will cost you $10 a person to get them to your party’ and the other one says, ‘it will only cost you 10 cents but we’ll send out over a million invites’.

Now there’s no guarantee that anyone will turn up to your party but I only spent 10 cents an invite so I’m going to go with that. It’s the huge decision marketers make when they go on cost isn’t it?

Luke:

Totally is and if you’re not putting money aside in your mind to optimise anything in digital whether it’s internally or externally with agency partners you’re doomed to fail. There is so much you can learn if you have the right measurement in place.

It’s funny because the Martec vendors out there at the moment are making money hand over fist and there’s a new one every day and half the time we walk into a new client we’re actually ripping out the Martec.

Some of the Martec platforms have amazing uses of really good use cases but often when we go into a client it’s not in their vertical. It doesn’t suit their needs. They’ve been sold a pipe dream for a product that will never ever meet their needs and one was paying a million dollars a year for the privilege of having a piece of software, a SAS product that they could never really make full use out of.

And we ripped it out straight away and they are now in a free version of something and it’s fit for purpose.

Darren:

These Martec / Adtech sales people are the best salespeople in the world. The number of times we’ve been contacted because we’re totally independent and they’ll phone up and go, ‘I think I’m about to buy X. Should I?’ is the question.

And we’ll go, ‘what do you want to achieve? How is it going to be implemented? What would success look like?’ We’ve got the 20 questions to ask.

Salesforce is a B2B platform and yet I’ve heard of so many companies that have implemented it as a B2C management tool because it’s been sold to them as a customer relationship management system. But the customer is usually going to be in a B2B environment.

Luke:

That’s my problem with the industry. I sound like a broken record today but if you come back to your goals and constantly look at what are the business goals and therefore what are our digital goals and then what are our Adtech goals?

Darren:

You’re not a broken record because you’re absolutely going back to the first principles of the way marketing should ideally operate but here’s the thing. Marketer tenure is getting shorter and shorter. It’s down to around 22 months and the number one reason, I read earlier this year, that they were being flicked faster and faster was that they weren’t delivering on growth expectations.

So, we’ve got shorter and shorter CMO tenure. We’ve got an increased expectation of performance and yet marketers are actually not there because most of what we’ve been talking about, what you’ve been saying, actually takes time.

Luke:

Exactly. It does take time but you start back to first principles and if you understand that you can take the business on a journey with that and most businesses we work with are really receptive to that. And when you start delivering on the goals and milestones that you’re going to get and you over-achieve them, that gives you trust to do other things.

That’s why we won five Effies last year. We’re flying out next week to hopefully add Asia Pac Effies—we’ve got three finalists there and we’re the only one in programmatic and I think that says a lot about our industry at the moment—that there was one in the entire Asia Pac region, which was an independent from Australia that is a finalist.

Darren:

Just being a finalist is terrific. We’ve run out of time but good luck with the effectiveness awards in Asia and it’s absolutely heartening to hear that someone is actually putting their money where their mouth is on performance—congratulations.

Luke:

Thanks, Darren.

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About Darren Woolley

Darren is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management. A Problem Solver, Negotiator, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3 - Marketing Management Consultants, founding member of the Marketing FIRST Forum and Author. He is also a Past-Chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, Ex-Medical Scientist and Ex-Creative Director. And in his spare time he sleeps. Darren's Bio Here Email: darren@trinityp3.com

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