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Managing Marketing: Social Media, Online Communities And Crisis Management

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Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Founder and Global CEO, Darren Woolley. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

Alison Michalk is the CEO of Quiip, a Social Media and Online Community Management Company. Here Alison shares with Darren the role of on-line community management in a crisis and the importance of building an online community as a moat around your business, brand and organisation to protect it in a crisis. She also highlights the important role Community Management plays in all aspects of the business from Marketing and Sales to Corporate Communications.

You can listen to the podcast here:

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Transcription:

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing and today I’ve got the opportunity of sitting down and having a conversation with Alison Michalk from Quiip, which is a social media and online community management company. That’s a bit of a mouthful, Alison, but welcome.

Alison:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Darren:

I think a lot of people, obviously, have heard of social media but the idea of community management is a little bit confused because I know some people in business who think of community management as the touchy feely thing that’s done over in the corner. Is that a fair assessment? What is community management?

Alison:

It’s a little confusing because people interchange the term social media and online community manager. The way I view online community management is more branded communities or owned spaces so like proprietary communities so usually forums. If you think about forums that’s what I think about when I’m talking about online communities. You can build communities on Facebook and other platforms but it’s a lot harder to do.

Darren:

You hear about community management in a lot of social issues and I know ‘not for profits’ are inclined to have community managers as part of their fundraising aren’t they?

Alison:

Absolutely and a lot of ‘non-profits’ have strong online forums especially in the mental health space. Anything you can do, say or reach out to those sorts of clients because they’re modelled around peer to peer support so they’ll have a place where everyone can go to talk about issues. That’s an example of brands that do forums quite well.

Darren:

But what I’ve heard about community management for corporates; it’s inclined to be around corporate affairs and that type of area more so than marketing–from my perspective.

Alison:

Yeah. I’m not as familiar with it being used in that context. I’m a bit more immersed in the space of community management. We see it being used a lot conflated with social media management—people managing brands. Facebook pages often call themselves community managers. And to varying degrees they are.

Darren:

It would be interesting to see how much of that’s just broadcasting on social media because that’s quite different from actually building and nurturing a community of brand supporters.

Alison:

Absolutely—incredibly different. Communities are about many to many conversations whereas social media is traditionally push-messaging and it’s one to many but there’s not a lot of opportunity for your members or customers to talk to each other. And that’s probably one of the key differences.

And I think with social media too it’s changed so much in a short time and now social media managers might be looking after media buying or ad spend or analytics. I think we’ll see fragmentation of what the role descriptions actually are as time goes on.

Darren:

Talking about corporate affairs; it’s almost like they’ve co-opted social media to be their stakeholder management process for investors and that type of thing.

Alison:

Yeah, I think that’s happened a bit but as we move in to talking about crisis management and communications there is definitely some way to go in terms of how corporate comms and media work together.

Darren:

That’s true. We’ve seen quite a few examples often where corporates are facing a crisis there is almost nothing on social media. In fact, it goes incredibly quiet. And yet that would probably be the number one thing you shouldn’t do.

Alison:

Yeah, at Mumbrella recently they were talking about back in the day when PR teams had 24 hours to respond. They talked about the golden 24 hours and they were having a bit of a chuckle about it because it’s maybe a golden hour if you’re lucky these days. So, you might not even have an hour to respond so obviously that’s changed the landscape rapidly.

Social media has really turbocharged that need to get a message out there and the longer you wait it doesn’t usually work in your favour.

Darren:

How long do you think it is now?

Alison:

I would say it’s under an hour. I’m not a PR company so they might have a different opinion on that. I think you need to be saying something within the first hour while you go off and do your investigation, research, and fact finding. I think it’s important to acknowledge that you’ve heard whatever is going on and that you’re working hard to get back to people as soon as you can. You need to say something as soon as you can.

Darren:

I think that’s the point isn’t it, acknowledging that this is a potential issue and then also spelling out what the next steps are.

Alison:

Yeah, absolutely.

Darren:

Because I remember last century being a copywriter in an agency getting called into what was at the time quite a big issue. A utility company had a major disaster. My job was to write an apology (full page ad) and I was surrounded by corporate affairs where they said, ‘we want you to write an ad that says ‘sorry’ without saying sorry’. That took three days and the ad never ran.

That’s the old days. Whereas now we see this blowing up almost overnight and yet a lot of companies still seem to be unprepared for crisis. Is this the work you do with your clients?

Alison:

Yes, and I think that whole risk management piece is what’s really important. It’s interesting—your story about being a copywriter and being called in there because I think what’s lacking in this social media space at the moment is community managers having a seat at that table. I think often what we see is in the ward room the crisis comms get discussed, the plan gets laid out and traditionally PR is about controlling the message. Social media—it’s very difficult to control the message.

You might have a 1,000 different questions or responses that you need to get back to in varying iterations of what’s going on. We see a disconnect between what’s decided upon and then this poor community management theme gets delivered like here’s our response or they get the non-apology apology that got written by the copywriter.

And they know their community, consumers and members best and often they think this isn’t going to work well. So, I think it’s all about really empowering the social media community management team that you have and making sure they’re involved in those conversations so they can adapt them to what is going to work best on social.

I think that’s the issue—not seeing community management as senior as it needs to be because it really is these community mangers across all your consumer touch points and when a crisis hits you want them to feel like they’re empowered to deal with it as best they can.

Darren:

Alison, this is assuming that the company has a community manager because it’s not something that you can just create overnight is it?

Alison:

No and I think that’s part of your preparation—having those risk management plans in place for social because I think PR agencies still don’t deal with social media as well as they could.

Lots of companies might have one community manager and then we start looking at what’s happening at nights, and at weekends which is where we do a lot of our business. So, we work with in-house teams but if they’re lucky they get to go home (not in a crisis but in everyday situations).

Darren:

But the crisis never seems to happen Monday to Friday, 9.00 to 5.00 does it?

Alison:

No, it doesn’t. It’s another challenge in our space that we see lots of companies might just have one community manager and that community manager does check at night and they do check on Saturday morning and at 3.00am.

Darren:

24/7.

Alison:

Yes. So, I’m seeing a lot of burnout and people complain about it a lot and they’re not being compensated for it and often the company doesn’t even know they do it. So, the company’s not even thinking we’re getting them to work for free; they’re just not aware.

Sometimes, we’ve worked with clients where the community manager’s going away for a holiday but at the moment I feel nervous leaving my phone in my locker at the gym for 45 minutes. That’s the longest I would not be on my Facebook brand page. That’s a challenge and that’s not even in a crisis that’s just…

Darren:

Normal management.

Alison:

Normal, everyday social media management.

Darren:

There is an expectation with social media that it’s always on.

Alison:

Yes. I do think it is an age thing. We see new people that are coming into the industry that are younger and they think that’s the expectation of their role—social media—it’s just what I have to do.

I think it’s interesting because I think sooner or later something is going to go terribly wrong out of hours and is the company going to say ‘hang on our employment contract doesn’t specify that you have to work on the weekends’. We are going to move into some tricky territory there.

Darren:

The old model, which still exists, ‘don’t say anything, get a strategy to control the messaging, and then broadcast as much as possible’. That’s the traditional approach to a crisis. What’s the difference between that and the way a community manager would respond to a crisis?

Alison:

I think they would get the tone of voice right and all of these sorts of things are really important. The message isn’t as much being controlled as being consistent on what that brand/ persona is and doing risk planning.

With our clients we brainstorm every conceivable scenario of what could go wrong and have pre-approved responses ready to go. What have we got from the CEO down? What are we going to do with all these sorts of issues? Obviously, you can’t predict every issue.

Darren:

Virtually impossible but you can cover most of them.

Alison:

Ultimately they start falling into a number of categories. We’ve found, because a lot of our clients are so risk averse, that that governance/risk framework piece is important; like having escalation processes, response protocols (like at what point do we escalate and call people in) and all those sorts of things, which probably doesn’t vary too differently from how PR teams would do it. But it’s definitely something you need to get right.

Darren:

Is part of it also the fact that if you’re a good community manager and you have a good community management strategy in place you have a better understanding of what the expectation is of that community? In the way that you would talk to them, the things that you would share with them, what you could and couldn’t say and also you would have (hopefully) built a high level of credibility if not trust.

Alison:

Absolutely and you’ve got time on the ground where you’ve seen how this stuff is played out. It might not be a crisis per se but it will be like we know the consumers responded to an ad in a certain way or that consumers got annoyed when this product failed so it’s dealing with low-level issue management constantly as part of the job.

So, I think they really have their finger on the pulse of how is the community going to respond to this? They deal with it every day—issues of management within communities.

Darren:

From very small things to quite significant issues as well.

Alison:

Absolutely. I think one of the good examples is that famous Dan from Optus around the bus ads that were in different languages. I think that was dealt with really well and that was testament to the Optus team that Dan was empowered to respond in that way and they let him do that. They knew and trusted him to do that and that really paid off for them.

It’s an example of trusting your community management team and obviously having the right training and processes. They didn’t just say go for it; he worked for them for a long time. I think it was one that was handled really well.

Darren:

It’s interesting the way you talk about community management it seems to be almost like the bridge between corporate strategy and marketing and sales because it is a customer-facing part of the business isn’t it?

Alison:

It really is. I haven’t thought about it in those terms but it does span all of those areas and community management is a jack-of-all trades; you touch on all different areas of the business.

Darren:

Part of it is relationship management, which is corporate affairs. Part of it is brand management. Part of it is customer relationship management, which is sales (brand management/marketing). It really does cover all of those areas; brand, reputation, and yet, as you said, it’s really not necessarily seen as being part of that C-Suite decision making is it?

Alison:

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head and that’s something that I’ve been advocating for a long time. Your community manager is the person you send out into the angry masses in a crisis. But every day they’re dealing with consumer feedback, product ideation, sales or corporate strategy and all these things.

Darren:

So why do you think it is under-appreciated in a lot of organisations?

Alison:

I think with the speed of adoption that Facebook had (from a nice to have to a must-have, now we need to do it 24/7) and I feel lots of brands have just been trying to keep up the whole time. They haven’t really had to think strategically about where it sits in the organisation.

And even in those early days it was like is it marketing, PR, where does it sit? And I think that still goes on a lot.

Darren:

Well where do you think it should sit? Or should it have its own entity? I’ve seen organisations where they’ve put community management (some call it social media management or whatever) under corporate affairs. I’ve seen it in marketing—they’re the two main ones. And as soon as you do that it becomes secondary to the part of the organisation that hosts it.

Alison:

And I’ve seen it sit in IT as well, which is a bit of a weird place to sit. It’s computer stuff isn’t it?

Darren:

Wow.

Alison:

I probably see it more as communications than a marketing angle but it obviously spans both but this is where stakeholder engagement internally is so important for community managers because every single department is coming to you. Can we do this? We want to run a poll. We want to do this? We want to do a promotion or can we post this or put this message out? And there’s a lot of tension.

Darren:

My concern is when it’s put under marketing there is an inclination towards making it a lot of advertising, putting a lot of content in the community that’s offer or proposition based or that tries to engage the community in things like competitions and generating consumer generated content that they can then use in marketing.

When I’ve seen it in corporate affairs a lot of it is aimed towards journalists and investors and not the real community of customers. Yet, if I had to choose between the two I would choose corporate affairs because it is invariably closer to the CEO and I think, ultimately, it should be the voice of the CEO in a way direct to all stakeholders, customers, and investors shouldn’t it?

Alison:

Yeah, absolutely and in an ideal world you have input from these different departments but I agree it probably sits better in comms. Often it’s done in a very formal way when it’s managed by the comms team.

Darren:

It’s not very social is it?

Alison:

It’s trying to find that mix. I agree with the marketing and that’s where you need to have an understanding of the fundamentals of community management but ultimately you want your community management to dovetail with your business objectives so you’re working out where they match.

But often, from the get-go, it’s like we’re going to sell more pizzas through Facebook but that’s not how you build community.

Darren:

That’s called social media advertising not community management.

Alison:

I’m not sure that people understand community building as much as they probably could. It can tie in very well with business objectives but trying to work out where that intersection takes place is the tricky part.

Darren:

And this is a long-term strategy isn’t it? Because I can imagine when the crisis hits, turning around and saying ‘let’s start a community management’ could be a little late.

Alison:

Just a little. It’s definitely a long-term strategy and I think we’re seeing it more because Facebook has changed so much so companies and brands are thinking do we want to keep giving all our money and data to Zuckerberg or what is the long-term play? Social media is always going to have a part but is owned community more important?

I’m of the opinion that an online community is the single biggest asset your company can own; your customers or consumers talking to each other. What’s more powerful than that? There actually isn’t anything.

Starting to build it now and getting it right is hugely important but it is a long-term goal. So, if you look at any leadership that is looking for quick wins while they’re in their positions that’s what’s hard because really it might take you three years or something to build an owned community well.

And if you do it well when those crises hit, community can form a bit of a moat. It protects your business. Customers are going to stick up for you if you’ve been there for them. If you’ve done it right they’ll be there for you in those times. They’ll start defending you which is always going to look better.

But to your point; it absolutely does take a long time. I think that’s where it can get tricky because people don’t want a three-year win.

Darren:

No, they want instant gratification—short-termism. What you say about the moat is interesting because there is nothing better than when you start seeing a run on social media on a particular issue and, of course, you’ll always get the detractors who’ll jump onboard with their stories of horror but then when you get people who come in and go ’well actually I think you’re being a bit unfair and what about all this?’

If you’ve managed it well there’ll be an equal number of supporters as there are detractors.

Alison:

Absolutely and the investment that goes into that happening is the invisible work of community management. People think you’re on Facebook all day but it’s like you don’t see what’s being removed or the everyday interactions of community management.

And communities are built through 1,000s of interactions with customers so when you see something like that where people come in and defend the brand that’s a sign that some body’s done a really good job in the community management.

Darren:

Because they’ve actually built a community. The word in there is community and that’s probably the mistake people have made in that they’ve either thought of it as a sales or marketing or comms channel. But in actual fact what you’re talking about is something quite different, which is a community where your role is to facilitate the conversations; not to dominate.

Alison:

Yes, and to facilitate that customer experience. So, we’re seeing it a lot where a brand wants a customer experience across the board—holistic–and community management is part of that. Because we know now that if you walk into a bank your experience is very different from getting on Twitter.

Darren:

Ah, banks—oooh!

Alison:

Maybe we shouldn’t go into banks. But that’s where that community management piece is really important because it’s a customer experience. And I think we’re already beginning to see it but what we will see is people will choose products and brands based on the strength of the community that exists.

I know I already do it with certain things. If I go to their Facebook page or forum and I think I’m going to get better support or help with this product. It might not even be run by the brand. It might be a Facebook group that’s about a product. I’ve made purchasing decisions based on that because it’s that power of knowledge that I’m going to want from that group. So, I think that’s something you want to get right.

Darren:

One of the issues that we’ve noticed is that a lot of marketers are inclined to measure community through the number of likes they get and yet that’s not actually a community is it?

Alison:

No, it’s not and we need to move away from those sorts of metrics especially now that reach is so low.

Darren:

How do you measure community strength or success?

Alison:

In a forum there is actually a health check called the community health index, which has been put together by a lot of these data scientists who work for Lithium, the amazing Dr Michael Wu. You can use that. It’s essentially a survey that does measure a sense of community and things and you get a score based on that.

That’s a very thorough approach to doing it and in forums you would look at different things; do new people post, how often do they post, do they come back/ return? In social media it starts depending on the brand, product or what it is you’re trying to achieve ultimately and I guess that’s where you talk about business objectives.

And you forget the likes and what are we doing this for? Are we trying to increase certain things or decrease others? Are we decreasing calls to the call centre? Well that’s going to save us money. Or are we increasing loyalty? Do people stay longer, buy more?

Darren:

Are there any categories that seem to do it better than others? Let’s not get down to individual brands but do you think there are some categories that do this really well and other categories that don’t do it so well? We said let’s not discuss the banks but do you think the financial services category does it well generally? Or retailers? Do you have any view on that?

Alison:

I think the Telco’s do it well and terribly at the same time–they sort of have to. Everyone needs their mobiles to work all the time. It’s something we live with every single day so they have to do social and do it well. And they’ve done the forums quite well. Most Telco’s have customer forums that operate really well; where banks don’t.

Banks—people aren’t really talking to each other. It’s a highly regulated industry so they’ve got their own entire set of challenges there. But I don’t know if any industry is necessarily leading the way per se.

Darren:

I have noticed that the online retailers because they’re online they immediately build a forum, a community around that, which I find really interesting. Personally, when I transact through an ecommerce site I love being able to see what everyone else that’s transacted on that site says about it; about delivery, fit, customer service, and I think that’s why they do it so well.

It’s interesting because the bricks and mortar retailers don’t do it so well. Even when they have an ecommerce site they don’t do it so well. We talk about digital transformation but I think it’s a transformation from the business perspective to understand that whether I’m dealing with you as a customer in the real world or online it shouldn’t matter; I need to build that sense of loyalty, trust, community with you.

Alison:

Yes, Absolutely. A U.K. brand did really well with the retail and created your shopping experience and if you walked past the store they would know you’re walking past and say hey, that thing’s on sale but also this sales assistant can help you if you want to come in and try on X,Y and Z.

It’s like blending that bricks and mortar with the online experience and I thought that was quite clever; customise and personalise the experience and join the two, which I’m sure we’ll see more of.

Darren:

I’ve suddenly realised people could be listening to us and think that we’re talking about all social media but this is quite different to things like social listening isn’t it? Because it is about building a community not just monitoring Twitter and the like to see what people are saying about you. It is more about building a community of your customers and supporters and stakeholders.

Alison:

Yes, absolutely. Listening might be a side piece of it where you are listening and looking for opportunities to engage in conversations proactively, which not a lot of brands do. You don’t see it happen enough.

If you start monitoring and you know what all these people are talking about on forums and Twitter –let’s go out there. I think at the moment there is such a deluge of social media on your own platforms the proactive stuff doesn’t happen as much.

So, listening is to the side and the social management piece is like you’re in the trenches day in and day out responding to customers and engaging with them, building up a sense of community.

Darren:

Now, Alison, you mentioned it before but I know talking to a lot of clients that they’re often challenged with where should this be managed? Should this be something they do in-house, completely outsource it or is it a hybrid model? What are the things that people need to consider when they’re going through those?

The obvious answer is contact Quiip and they’ll handle all your problems for you but what’s the process you recommend people go through to work out what works best for them?

Alison:

I think someone sitting in-house with your organisation has a lot of clear benefits. They get to know people, they’re in there involved with meetings and discussions and so forth. Most of the clients we work with would have one or a team of people already working in-house and with those brands that are quite large we would be working to support them out of hours.

I think that’s where this becomes tricky for a lot of companies because they go, ‘well, can we get Bob in at 10.00pm to work a shift?’ Are we allowed to do that? Is there a policy around that? Are we giving him a cab charge on the way home?

The out of hours thing is still very challenging for companies especially when they want to do a 10pm shift and a 3am shift and a check at 6am. Someone coming into the office just doesn’t make sense there.

That’s where we’ve had some success being a large team and offering the outsource work. Hiring internally is hard because a lot of people don’t have a lot of experience because it’s grown so fast but I think the hybrid model works well.

But if we’re talking about it in the context of crisis comms it all comes back to have a plan, a risk management strategy then it won’t matter if the team is internal or external but empower them to deal with the issue as best they can.

Darren:

Because they know how to respond when they need to respond.

Alison:

That’s it, yeah.

Darren:

We’ve always recommended to clients that it’s worthwhile having a hybrid model because it just gives you a constant external perspective. I think one of the biggest issues would be if your team is only internal they can quickly become factory out. And I think it’s important as a community manager to keep that perspective of what does the community want?

In some ways you’re almost their representative at the organisation because you’re in that conversation, not the one, ‘well, here’s the company point of view’.

Alison:

Absolutely, and I think that’s another strength because not only are we working across different industries so we can pull examples from all different industries and all our clients are benefiting from that. I think that speaks to your point about how you can become a bit isolated within an organisation. And constantly looking at what other companies’ brands are doing well is really important.

Darren:

One of the issues though that puts people off outsourcing it is we’ve had a few high profile situations where someone has made the smart-ass comment or the inappropriate comment as an external community manager. How do you mitigate that?

Alison:

Mitigating a community manager saying what they shouldn’t say?

Darren:

Yeah, often they’ll say something they personally believe and it reacts badly in the community or it’s not on corporate strategy and suddenly you’ve got a crisis and people feel that somehow having that function in-house they’re able to better align people than out-sourcing it.

Alison:

I don’t know if that’s true. I think that a community manager going rogue is probably a sign of not a great hiring practice. We see it a bit. I run a Facebook group for community managers—there are 4,500 people in there so there’s no shortage. We’ve actually had to create a culture; let’s not bag out everything that’s terrible. Let’s constructively look at how we could have done things better.

Darren:

That’s so un-marketing and advertising.

Alison:

It is. And now even the community managers will chime in and say, ‘well just remember that community manager is probably here so how can we support them or give them advice and let’s not tear them to shreds’.

But what has interested me over the years when contents flare up because of things that community managers have said and sometimes those community managers have justified it ‘but it’s on brand—we’re getting heaps of engagement’ but it’s terrible—like potentially defamatory.

And off the back of that group we created a code of ethics for the community management industry (which we did with Sydney University and actually teach it to their students now). We can’t justify everything because it’s on brand and getting good engagement. Let’s set some parameters here.

Darren:

Good is the word we could discuss here; whether ‘good’ is good for the business or good for the numbers because the two are not necessarily the same.

Alison:

Yes, absolutely. I find it interesting that people are anti outsourcing. I think that’s because they’re making assumptions about what outsourcing is. Obviously, I’m very biased; if you’re outsourcing to people who are very experienced and have been doing it a long time that might change your opinion. I’m not sure how much more control you have by virtue of someone sitting next to you or in-house.

Darren:

Well you could fire them but I guess you could fire the whole company if they completely screwed up but that’s much more disruptive.

Alison:

Yes.

Darren:

I think this is a risk aversion issue that’s probably, as you say, not really a true measure of the risk they’re facing.

Alison:

It’s an interesting one though—getting all that communication right especially if you want to be edgy and push the envelope a bit if that’s who your brand is–it does get tricky.

Darren:

And it’s also not a situation where you can have your community managers constantly referring up to someone to get advice because it is happening often in real time. They need to respond to the conversation.

Alison:

And who are you checking with—that’s the thing? Do they have more experience doing community management—probably not? Like the head of marketing probably doesn’t have a lot of experience.

Darren:

Or 2.00am phoning the CEO and going, ‘sorry to wake you up but should I say this or this?’ It’s not what you want. So that would require a really clear set of brand or company guidelines and rules—a framework that you could operate in so that you’re meeting the strategic objective.

Alison:

Yeah, like a lot of tone of voice, we use examples of social media where we answer like this; not like this. And it’s like a constant iteration. You’ve got this playbook you can give to people and there are examples from our Facebook page of how we’ve dealt with issues.

Sometimes you might get it wrong but it’s not enough that you have to delete it. We might be working with an in-house community manager and I would have said it a bit differently—it’s this constant iteration. And it depends on how protective that community manager is as well.

Darren:

And that’s also the point because you can get it wrong. The big mistake people make is they try and dig themselves out of the hole by burying themselves rather than owning up to the fact they got it wrong.

Alison:

Yeah, there are risks in being a social media manager or online community manager. You’re right up at the edge of communication all the time especially if you’re trying to be edgy, funny or witty—it’s tricky territory.

Darren:

Or even worse—trying to please all of the people all of the time and ending up not being meaningful to anyone.

Alison:

Yes, absolutely.

Darren:

There is nothing worse than boring communities.

Alison:

No, they don’t work.

Darren:

People have got to feel an emotional connection as well don’t they?

Alison:

Yes, absolutely.

Darren:

Which is why a corporate approach would never work.

Alison:

No. And coming back to getting the community manager involved in these discussions—making sure there isn’t a disconnect between this is our response protocol and this is actually what the community manager is going to be dealing with in the next 72 hours straight. So people find themselves saying ‘sorry community manager, this is going to be horrible for you—we’re here for you’. There are constant posts like that because brands are just stuffing up all the time.

Darren:

So maybe the next CXO is the chief community officer that’s sitting up in the C-Suite.

Alison:

Yeah, we’ve seen that a bit in the States; there are a lot more head of community roles and they’re quite senior roles. They’re rare here but I think it’s going to happen more. I’d love to see it happen. How is it that it’s not an integral part of business?

Darren:

Well social media is so influential and so powerful it’s interesting how many organisations are still managing to avoid it.

Alison:

It’s make or break, that’s what it is.

Darren:

Alison, it’s been great having this conversation. Thank you for making the time.

Alison:

Thank you so much for having me.

Darren:

And last question. Who’s doing it really, really well in the Australian market?

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Darren is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management. A Problem Solver, Negotiator, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3 - Marketing Management Consultants, founding member of the Marketing FIRST Forum and Author. He is also a Past-Chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, Ex-Medical Scientist and Ex-Creative Director. And in his spare time he sleeps. Darren's Bio Here Email: darren@trinityp3.com

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