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Managing Marketing: Being An Analog Agency In A Digital World

Matt_Robinson

Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Founder and Global CEO, Darren Woolley. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

Matt Robinson is the Managing Director of AnalogFolk Sydney and here he discusses with Darren the importance of being focused on the clients’ future needs and delivering measurable value. This is not about being a digital or technology agency, but being a people first agency that uses technology to improve the analog world.

You can listen to the podcast here:

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Transcription:

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing and today I’m sitting down having a chat with Matt Robinson who’s Managing Director of AnalogFolk, one of the modern creative agencies or agencies in Australia. Welcome, Matt.

Matt:

Thank you, Darren.

Darren:

I say modern because that’s what it says on your website.

Matt:

Well that’s good, thank you, I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, good to be here. Modern for us, there’s a quote that our CEO, Bill, always kind of brings out and it’s a hockey quote, it’s an ice hockey quote because he’s Canadian so you know, maybe…

Darren:

The maple leaves.

Matt:

It shouldn’t be lost here but his view is you always need to skate to where the hockey puck is going to be because if you skate to where the hockey puck is at the moment, by the time you’re there…

Darren:

It’ll be gone by the time you get there.

Matt:

It’s kind of gone. And I think for us, that’s what modern is about. It’s about looking forward. It’s about holding onto some of the great things that advertising has been, and the industry has built and the amazing research around brand building and all the rest of it. But at the same time, really embracing the opportunities within digital.

That mix of perspectives, I think is incredibly important to us and that’s kind of why we talk about ourselves as being a more modern agency and being able to leave some of those legacy models behind is kind of our focus.

Darren:

So, I want to pick up on that Matt, because you’ve got an impressive career in working in some really well-established agency brand names, okay?

Matt:

Yes.

Darren:

And all of them today are talking about the way they need to transform and evolve and all of that, but you’ve already made that decision, you made that decision when you became an AnalogFolk, you know, can it be a pronoun?

Matt:

Well, we call ourselves folk, we don’t necessarily call ourselves AnalogFolk individually but yeah, it can be.

Darren:

Okay, so what were the changes you saw in the industry that made this the right decision for you?

Matt:

Yeah, that’s a good question. Look, I think for me my career spans media, creative, as well as digital agencies and I was very lucky to jump on one of the first digital agencies in Australia which was called Netex which was later acquired by Clems and probably one of the more successful digital agencies in Australia.

At the time digital was so new and it kind of introduced an incredibly new way of thinking and that was being able to measure literally everything. So creativity had this new kind of platform where we could be personalised, we could be individual, we could speak to people one to one and it kind of merged the best of direct marketing with I suppose what brands could build or what brands could do.

Darren:

So, what was it, having worked in a lot of very well-known agency brands, that made you realise that AnalogFolk and that sort of offering was the right decision at the right time for you?

Matt:

When I ended up moving to some of these other well-known agency brands that you mention, often my role, I was a strategist at the time and my role was always kind of put in there as an instigator and it was to be the kind of person who came in and agitated the agency and helped to infuse digital thinking throughout.

Now, if you know anything about the way that sort of digital thinking or digital transformation works, it’s not a silver bullet solution. It’s a sum of many, many parts. It’s operational, it’s cultural. There are so many aspects to delivering great digital work or infusing digital thinking into what you do, and a lot of those agencies made some really good progress and they’re still fantastic agencies doing great work.

But what I saw as the opportunity to launch the Sydney office of AnalogFolk was really to kind of do it properly, you know? And do it without any of those legacy systems hanging around and any kind of global governance.

Darren:

Yeah, I wouldn’t even say they’re legacy systems, I think it’s a legacy culture.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

Which makes it even more difficult, you know? How many times did we see traditional agencies go through this thing of, “Oh well, we’ll just go out and acquire some sort of digital resources and stick them in the agency and somehow through osmosis that will transform our business.

Then others would recruit people and stick them in and then we had creative teams where it went from writer and art director to writer, art director and technologists and somehow that was going to be the magic bullet. I think all of them missed the point which was as you said, it’s more than just a transformation, it’s actually building it from the ground up.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think in a lot of agencies there still remains this kind of hand off process of departments handing to departments and whilst that can be a valid way of getting to great work, there are so many other ways to getting to good thinking and that’s by bringing other perspectives in.

Like you say, it’s not a matter of just attaching a creative technologist or a creative team, it’s actually making sure that that creative technologist has as much of a role in driving the strategy or inputting into the strategy as anyone else. And that’s really hard in traditional agencies.

The billing model kind of dictates allocations of percentages of people and not to say it’s not workable, but I kind of saw the opportunity of AnalogFolk to join a company where we could make the agency that we wanted to make.

Darren:

So, start from a green field and build it from the ground, up. I wonder if you have seen on the client’s side, the same sort of struggle that they’ve had because when you are working with a client that has a digital department or a digital silo, does that make you worry that perhaps they haven’t got the thinking together?

Matt:

I think in certain organisations and certain examples, it still makes sense. I think more and more clients are building digital capability around development or around content, in some cases UX and experience design. Social media obviously is another big one where clients are kind of building digital capability.

That can make a lot of sense because being closer to the cold face, closer to the customer, sometimes that can work really well. I think when it gets really dangerous and a big thing that I’m seeing is you almost end up with two kind of religions competing within an organisation and I think there’s two religions competing in the marketing world in the moment where you’ve got this instant results, short term, measure everything, personalise everything, use data…

Darren:

Which is very digital, technology based.

Matt:

I think funnily this has become a traditional view of what digital is and what digital marketing is. Then you’ve got the world of brand building and again, all the great things that we’ve learnt from case studies and the long and the short of it and all of this amazing research where we understand that brands are built over the long term and the power of emotional connection and a lot of that cannot be measured.

You’ve got these competing forces at play and I think again, we’re coming from both of those worlds and we’re lucky in that a lot of our team has had experience in both of those worlds and understands the inter-relationship between them, It can never be a case of one or the other. It has to be how they work together.

Darren:

It never would. I mean, we often have the conversation with marketers around the idea of having a brand team and what that actually means because in a way, in the world we live in, whether it’s analogue or digital, every customer interaction, even a non-transactional one, is a brand experience.

The idea of doing the big brand TV ad that you launch on a Sunday night with a road block media and then sort of have a trickle-down effect into everything else is actually not the way you build brand because it’s actually a long-term, always on, brand building exercise. But likewise, just looking at making it all transactional or going for the short-term sales, you need to be considering that that is part of your brand building exercise.

Matt:

Without a doubt. And you know, over on the transactional side and this kind of deep digital data-driven side, for the most part, the actual brand experience and the principles of brand building aren’t very well considered in that world. It’s all about optimising, optimising, optimising data and I had an experience last week where I had four different companies contact me saying, “Can you give us your feedback about your experience with our brand?” And I think this is a very digital mentality.

One of them was a toll tunnel, one of them was after buying a pair of shoes for one of my kids and the other one was in a camping store. So, I’m yet to go camping, the toll was horrible and the shoes, you know, who knows yet? And it’s like there’s this feeling that just because we can get data, that we should and that’s not necessarily true and I don’t think a lot of these companies are thinking about the actual customer experience and what that experience is doing for their brand.

As you say, those micro interactions are as much about brand building as anything else and the lasting taste of sourness that I have from these people intruding on my time, that really needs to be considered in a lot more detail.

Darren:

I think NPS has a lot to answer for because the simplicity of saying, “how likely are you recommend us to someone else? Score us from zero to ten or one to ten”, the simplicity of that, “Oh well, we’re not intruding in on the customer because it’s just one question”. Except you’re right, you haven’t actually experienced anything other than a transaction.

Matt:

Exactly and that transaction is only a tiny, tiny fraction of my experience with that brand so I completely agree. I think people, consumers are going to get a little bit of NPS wear out at some point soon and companies are going to be receiving ones and twos and they’re not going to be too happy about it.

Darren:

Well I think that’s actually valuable for them though. If people stop being polite in giving them a five, six or seven, which is a neutral score and do give them the one or two, then suddenly they’re going to have to take notice because one of the powers of NPS is the fact that it starts all the way from board level down to the grass roots because the boards love an NPS score, you know?

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

And even if you go from minus forty-five to minus forty-two, that’s seen as a big improvement.

Matt:

Yeah absolutely. And I think measurement is probably another key, key area that maybe has been forgotten or maybe what has been left behind is measuring what matters. So, you know, we went through this period of social media and engagement metrics and all these kind of vanity metrics and what does it actually do?

Whereas I think what we need to focus on as an industry is really insuring that the value that we’re creating is actually being recognised properly. And that’s a hard discussion as well sometimes because it’s not always easy to get to the bottom of what kind of impact we’re making from an agency point of view.

Darren:

So, I get from what you’re saying is that you’re not saying don’t measure things, but make sure that you’re measuring the right things in the right circumstances so that you actually get an insight. Because being a strategist, you’d be driven by insight rather than data, wouldn’t you?

Matt:

As an MD now I’m probably more driven by spreadsheets than anything but yeah absolutely. I think as you say, measure what matters, you know, and try and understand the actual motivation behind the customer. That’s critical. And really, that’s what AnalogFolk is all about. Not to bring it back to us necessarily but being human, you know, and understanding human motivations.

I think my best description of the difference between analogue and digital is that analogue is infinite. We have infinite smells and colours and tastes and all the rest of it, whereas digital is kind of pre-programmed and we need to choose from options. So, understanding that the human being and what actually motivates them is really the most important thing and research should serve that. It shouldn’t just be there to tick a box and answer a KPI.

Darren:

So, on the basis that we’re human, let’s come right back to business. I mean, it must be incredibly difficult to communicate AnalogFolk in a world where there are so many other agencies out there all saying similar and different things. How do you cut through that as far as building a business or building your own brand?

Matt:

Yeah, look, I think I completely agree, and I think it’s not just about AnalogFolk, there was someone a couple of weeks ago who pulled from a whole bunch of different agencies, the ‘About Us’ page and kind of merged it into a word cloud and it was essentially just a whole bunch of gibberish and buzz words and all the rest of it. So, I completely agree, you’re right that agencies struggle to differentiate and position themselves, which is interesting given the business we’re in.

Darren:

Well that’s right, when I raise this, a lot of agencies say to me, “Oh it’s a bit like the cobbler’s shoes or the builder’s renovation” and you know, “We’re too busy doing it for our clients to do it for ourselves” but you’d have to say if you don’t do it for yourself, why would any client think you could do it for them?

Matt:

Oh look, completely and as an independent business no one’s handing us opportunities, you’ve got to find them. And so, positioning is critical and making sure that we’re clear on what it is that we stand for and can to communicate that as you say, is really important. So, for me that starts on the inside. It’s interesting where AnalogFolk is a ten-year-old business now so we’ve had seven years in Australia but we launched in London ten years ago and we’ve had an enduring kind of mission since day one which is that we use digital to make the analogue world better.

Darren:

Okay. That’s a nice idea, you know, it’s almost like a purpose.

Matt:

It is, it is, yeah. It is our purpose and I think if you look around at the world today, you look at what’s happening in digital, there are plenty of examples of it not making the world better and there’s this disconnect between that. We can binge on Netflix, the algorithm serves us up and gives us the perfect serve. But at the same time, what are we missing out on?

And the idea of the filter bubble and there’s some machine that’s deciding what kind of news I consume and what I see in my Facebook feed. So, there’s this clash of the two sides there. You know, we can be connected constantly across every single messenger bot or through WhatsApp and digital has enabled that. But at the same time there’s this overwhelming feeling of loneliness and there’s issues out there around people perhaps being too connected and bullying in schools and all that sort of thing.

So as I said, for us it comes from the inside and our point of view is that really technology and digital, it’s not a good or bad, it’s what you do with it that counts. We’re on the front foot working with clients, in terms of how we hire our people and the kind of skills and attitudes that we look for within our business. It has to be kind of optimistic and looking forward and wanting to make the world a better place and I’m not saying that we’ve necessarily solved all of the world’s problems yet but you know…

Darren:

But you’ve only been going ten years.

Matt:

Exactly. Exactly right.

Darren:

There’s still time.

Matt:

There is still time. But it’s the intent, you know, and I think for me, positioning and the way that we go out to the market, has to come from the inside.

Darren:

It’s become almost a bit of a cliché but being authentic…

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely.

Darren:

Is being able to live the words that you speak, to actually be able to communicate and then have the actions all aligned.

Matt:

Yes. So, clients might see thought pieces that we write. We do a thing called the AnalogFolk Journal which is a printed book every quarter, various people from around the network, whether it’s Portland, or whether it’s New York, London or Hong Kong, write perspectives on a particular topic.

So, we’ve had play, we’ve had belonging as different topics and we try and make sure we’re kind of working out our brains in a way that we are generating thinking and we’re trying to think ahead as to what big societal issues or or even cultural trends, we can look at.

Darren:

They’re all human issues.

Matt:

They’re all human issues importantly.

Darren:

They’re not technology issues.

Matt:

Exactly right, exactly right.

Darren:

I think that’s the trap, that people get so caught up in the technology that they actually forget at the end of the day there’s going to be a human being interfacing into it.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

And you see that with platforms that get developed by people that are great technology developers, but they’re not necessarily focused on the end user, they’re focused on what the technology can do.

Matt:

It’s so true. The idea of personalisation and the promise of personalisation I swear has been around for fifteen years. Obviously there’s the Amazon examples and all the rest of it but even those are flawed because if I buy a kid’s book for one of my daughter’s friends for a party, all of a sudden I’m being targeted and hammered with unicorn books or whatever it might be.

Darren:

C’mon, just fess up.

Matt:

Well look, you know.

Darren:

You are secretly a unicorn collector.

Matt:

Of course. That’s an example of again, of technology not necessarily relating to the needs of people and I still passionately believe in how much promise there is, but there is a reality that it’s difficult to implement.

Darren:

Yeah, I think it’s also because it takes a long time to get enough data about someone that you can actually truly start to predict what their wants, needs and desires will be at any time, at any point in time. There’s also this desire in business to scale things immediately right? I don’t actually want to interact with you, Matt, as an individual, I want one hundred thousand Matts and so the algorithm ends up treating you all as if you’re the same person, one hundred thousand times. When in actual fact, human engagement is the fact that we all interact with each other slightly differently.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

There could be one hundred thousand people similar to Matt, but then I would interact with each one as a human being and when technology is able to mimic that, and that’s why people talk about machine learning and artificial intelligence, but there is still a long way to go and it’s still going to rely on having the clarity of the data in, and the insights of human behaviour built in to the algorithm to actually create that experience for people.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

One of the best examples I had was they did an experiment with machine learning and it was a voice for a call centre for people to make complaints. And they had real people and they had the machine answering it. All they did in the algorithm was for the machine to acknowledge the person’s complaint. Whereas the human beings responded the way that human beings do. And then as an exit poll, the machine got a better exit rating than the human beings because the human beings were trying to solve the problem and were often creating more frustration.

Matt:

Right.

Darren:

Whereas the machine didn’t try and solve the problem, it went, “Oh, I’m sorry you had that bad experience, that must be terrible for you. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Well that’s terrible I’m sorry, what can we do to help?” “Well, you could do this!” “Well, we’ll look into that okay, and get back to you” and then the person hung up going, “Oh, thank god, someone listened to me”. Whereas the human being experience was, “Well, what we can do is this, this and this, before they really listened and acknowledged that the person had a legitimate problem.

Matt:

So maybe the analogue side of things had something to learn from digital then. Maybe that’s the learning there.

Darren:

Well I think because in that case the people in the call centre are put into a world where they’re being bombarded with problems and so the defence of that is to not sit there and listen to everyone’s problems butto try and solve them as quickly as possible so I can move onto the next one.

The interface that you look at is what is it about, the human experience that technology could be applied to to make it richer, more enjoyable, more rewarding for the human being?

Matt:

Yeah and obviously what is the role for brands within that so that’s what we do.

Darren:

So, what role does creativity play? Because the advertising industry is obsessed with this term, creativity.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

So, for you personally, what is the role of creativity in this?

Matt:

Look I think, it’s critical. I probably would put it at the most important thing that we need to do as a business and we need to deliver it to our clients.

Darren:

You mean create award winning advertising?

Matt:

No, no, not at all. I think…

Darren:

But isn’t that what creativity is from an advertising perspective?

Matt:

Of course not, Darren I know you’re being facetious there but no, no.

Darren:

Well there’s a creative department, apparently the only place creativity exists is in the creative department.

Matt:

Again, I think that’s probably a legacy creative department way of thinking. I think the modern creative department….

Darren:

Do you have a creative department?

Matt:

We do, yeah, we do.

Darren:

Is that where the creativity is?

Matt:

Well the creativity is through the organisation actually.

Darren:

So, you’re all creative.

Matt:

Look we are, we’re all creative. But obviously there are people who are better at it than others and who have the ability to spot other people’s ideas and kind of elevate them and that’s as important now as it ever has been. When you look at great creative directors or great creative people, it’s their ability to harness teams and bring them together and get the best out of everyone that I think is important.

But I mean, creativity itself, it has to come from different perspectives, so whether that’s a technology perspective, whether that’s a brand perspective, whether that’s a kind of human perspective, obviously again, that’s incredibly important. One of the things we do a lot of is draw from the network and some of our Shanghai office will be involved in certain creative work to get that different perspective and apply a new lens to some work or to a problem.

Darren:

Is it also because there’s different applications of creativity in that people that may be account management or project management or whatever you want to call them, apply creativity to a client’s problem. Whereas a creative person in the creative department is applying it to creating a piece of communication or something that that’s the sort of, definition or the focus of the creativity.

Matt:

Traditionally I think that is absolutely the case and we try and encourage all of our people to be involved and to have the ability to express their opinion and be creative across that entire end to end process from actually diagnosing and working with a client on what that problem is, to finding a way to deliver the work for the budget that they’ve got.

There’s creativity there in terms of how we value the work and we are trying to align ourselves to that. Also there is an opportunity for upside and a chance for us to not charge by the hour which I think is a critical thing for the whole industry to kind of get past.

Darren:

Well I was going to raise that because is it that creativity doesn’t exist in the finance department or is it management that suffers from a lack of creativity in finding a way to be able to find new business models or is it actually the clients that don’t want a new way of doing business with their agencies because the existing way works best for them?

Matt:

Little bit of this and that I suppose you could say.

Darren:

Because as an industry that’s driven by creativity, we still largely have the same structures that we had thirty years ago, we’ve got the same remuneration models that we had twenty and thirty years ago. We have the same attitude towards intellectual property that we had in creating and copyright that we had thirty years ago.

Matt:

Well, I’d argue that. I don’t think we do have necessarily the same. I think there are plenty of examples kind of people building out their own IP and owning it and then licensing it out. I think there’s plenty of examples of shifting away from the hour model and I suppose thirty years ago you probably would have been stuck back in the commission days I imagine.

Darren:

It was the end of the commission days.

Matt:

End of the commission days, okay.

Darren:

Sort of mid-nineties.

Matt:

I obviously can’t comment on those days. I imagine it would have been pretty easy to run an agency back then but…

Darren:

It was the beginning of the end.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. But look again, it comes back to agencies actually having a point of view on the commercial success that the work is expected to create and clients being open to share that. What I’ve definitely seen, and we’ve made a massive effort to shift to orientate ourselves towards that, whereby we’re spending a lot of time upfront with clients, making sure that we understand what are the commercial drivers and how does the marketing plan relate to that and therefore how does our work, the work that we’re intended to do relate to that?

By doing that I think we’re in a position where we can understand the impact and if we can measure that impact, then perhaps there’s some interesting ways of pricing our work and kind of sharing in some of that success. So, because we’re independent and because we are not bound to the rules that a lot of the big traditional agencies have, we’re able to do that.

I’ve had probably four or five conversations over the last year with clients about exactly that. We’ve implemented probably two or three examples of it fairly recently which are completely forgetting about head hours and I actually can’t even remember the last time a client requested that we do a head hour report for them.

Darren:

That’s great. But I just want to pick up, I don’t think it’s independent versus non-independent because you’re part of a network. You know, you’ve got offices…

Matt:

We’re part of a network but we’re independently owned in all of those offices.

Darren:

I think it’s not publicly listed, right? I think as soon as a network is publicly listed, they’re answerable to the investors on the share market.

Matt:

Yes.

Darren:

The quarterly announcement of profit is what drives a behaviour around reducing cost and trying to maximise revenue because it’s all about profit.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

Whereas as a privately-owned company, even a network of privately-owned companies or even a holding company that owns them, as long as it’s not publicly listed, you can then make decisions about investing back into the business for the good of the client.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

With this client we’re willing to invest in because we know it’s going to pay off in the long-term whereas you know, if you’re publicly listed and you’re reporting every three months, it’s like, I’ve got to take the money now. I’ve got to…. And it’s a very short-term view which is even reinforced by a lot of clients that are publicly listed taking the same short-term view which is to cut expenditure and hope that the sales hold up.

Matt:

Absolutely, but I think most clients are really open to it and I think those discussions where we’re aligning ourselves to our commercial goals essentially, have been really, really positive. So yeah, it’s great.

Darren:

It’s good to hear because we still see a lot of big clients that are still buying ideas by the hour.

Matt:

Yeah.

Darren:

Which to me is like buying books by the kilo or clothes by the metre. I don’t really care what it looks like and I don’t really care about the content as long as the price is low.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah.

Darren:

You’re never going to get great innovation or great breakthrough. Now, going back to the idea of paying on success, didn’t you in a way set up the big challenge there because you talked about short-term results and long-term brand building.

Matt:

Yes.

Darren:

Now it must be incredibly difficult to be paid on success if it’s around long-term brand building because that success may take two, three years before you actually see an uptick in the metrics of that brand building. So, is the danger that agencies will end up getting paid, bonused, on achieving short-term sales results at the expense of long-term brand?

Matt:

Oh, look it’s possible. I think particularly in the performance media world, a lot of digital businesses are paid in exactly that way and I think they’re probably being overpaid because a lot of the marketing effort is being attributed to what they’ve done and not necessarily to the longer-term brand building effects of whatever that work was.

So, without a doubt, it’s possible. I think it really is about how you set it up and yeah, I agree with you that if we had a two to three-year kind of view, that would be a lovely thing to do. But there’s ways around it. We can look at lead indicators.

Darren:

Yeah like brand tracking studies and things like that.

Matt:

Yeah whether it’s brand tracking or whether it’s associating organic web traffic or whatever it might be and we can correlate that to business results, but there’s loads of ways of doing it.

Darren:

Now one of the big issues that agencies often talk about is talent recruitment, talent development and talent retention; you may not have the secret sauce, but what’s your focus around talent?

Matt:

I wouldn’t say we have a secret sauce as you say, I go back to culture. And I go back to starting with our mission and what we stand for and offering an environment where people who buy into that are going to enjoy themselves and are going to do some great work. So, we try and look at diverse training as an example.

We’ve had a long-standing kind of partnership with General Assembly where when they first launched, we gave all of our team multiple classes, they could go out and do whatever they wanted within that kind of environment. We do a thing called anti-training where we give everyone $500 a year and they can choose something to do that has absolutely nothing to do with our industry.

So, someone’s done horse whispering and we’ve had clay painting and we’ve had all sorts of different interesting things. So yeah, I think supporting people’s growth beyond our day job is important. But at the same time, offering them opportunities to do great work that they believe in. Whether it’s working with charity partners or whatever it might be, you know, actually kind of contributing in a way that makes them feel good as well.

Darren:

Because it is important and people work long hours in advertising. I think we’ve seen especially in Asia, the negative impact of those long hours, but obviously if people are actually feeling rewarded, not just financially, but emotionally, they’re able to better deal with that.

Matt:

It comes back to this whole idea of moving away from the hourly billings and actually valuing the thinking that we produce instead. Because without doing that, there’s a profit ceiling you know? The amount of money you can make is dictated by how big you are. We don’t want to be that. We want to avoid that.

Darren:

Well you’ve become a people factory because the more people I have billed out at 1600 hours, 1800 hours, 2000 hours, becomes the way you scale.

Matt:

Exactly, and when you’re looking at who I think our competition is which is, from a talent point of view it’s so much more diverse than it used to be. There are so many creative…

Darren:

Well it’s not other agencies, is it?

Matt:

It could be other agencies but it could equally be Googles and Facebooks, for us it could be start-ups, it could be an innovation department in a consultancy or in a bank or whatever it might be. There’s so many opportunities for talent to find interesting work and do things that push them forward personally.

So to compete with that, we’ve got to release that kind of profit ceiling. We’ve got to be able to pay them amazing salaries. We’ve got to be able to have benefits that stack up and we’re on a path towards all those things like flexible working. We’ve got a couple of part-time people in the office and we’re really big on pushing that. I think in order to deliver on that, to execute on a more flexible and a more inspiring and a better place to work, we’ve got to shift how we do things and that’s really the path we’ve been on.

Darren:

Matt. We’ve run out of time but look, thank you for sharing some insights from behind the doors at AnalogFolk.

Matt:

Thank you for having me, Darren.

Darren:

Just one question before you go, so who’s most likely to buy you?

Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley. Find all the episodes here

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Darren is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management. A Problem Solver, Negotiator, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3 - Marketing Management Consultants, founding member of the Marketing FIRST Forum and Author. He is also a Past-Chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, Ex-Medical Scientist and Ex-Creative Director. And in his spare time he sleeps. Darren's Bio Here Email: darren@trinityp3.com

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