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Managing Marketing: The Roles of Design in Building Brands

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Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Founder and Global CEO, Darren Woolley. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

John Chan is the Managing Director APAC for Berge Farrell International, a strategic brand design consultancy. John shares his passion for design and the power of design to create and build brands. From the role of packaging and corporate identity to trigger brand trials, communicate brand promises, build brand preference and generate sales and ultimately customer loyalty. Brand design is more than the outward appearance, it is all about the effect and impact it has on the customer. 

You can listen to the podcast here:

Transcription:

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising, with industry thought leaders and practitioners.

Today, I’m sitting down with John Chan, Managing Director APAC at Berge Farrell International – Strategic Brand Design Consultancy. Welcome, John.

John:

Thank you, Darren. It’s a great pleasure to finally be here. I follow your work quite a lot online, and now I’m sitting opposite the legend himself.

Darren:

Well, thank you. You’re much too kind, but look yeah, this is a terrific opportunity for me because design has always been a passion of mine.

In fact, I always feel that when you see great design, you have to consciously acknowledge it because often, great design just is there without really impacting the thought of how did they get that.

John:

Yeah, so, we are in the business of brand design. Our two founders and executive creative directors have been disciples of design for large portions of — in fact, all of their career.

And we certainly feel like the world of brand design doesn’t get the attention that it deserves for the value that it gives to the organisation. And we’re on a crusade to build more awareness of brand design and showcase the mastery of this profession.

Darren:

So, Berge Farrell actually does, when you talk about brand design, it’s all aspects of the brand, isn’t it? It’s all aspects and expressions of the brand.

John:

Absolutely. So we will start right from the beginning where we call it the science part of our process which starts with brand strategy. And brand strategy encapsulates everything about the internal workings of your brand.

So, the narrative, the positioning, the purpose, who you want to be, who you want to talk to, why do you want to talk to them? How do you talk to them? So there’s a bit of science in that.

And that leads and informs our design process, which is the art part of our process. That’s where visual and corporate identity gets created. And very often I think, as marketers, we’re guilty of this sometimes where we use the terms “brand” and “marketing” as one homogenous term. And they’re like used interchangeably.

For us, a brand certainly isn’t just a logo or typography or colours. The analogy I like to use is the idea of an iceberg floating in the Antarctic. So typically, people will see the top of the iceberg of a brand, the part that’s above the water – the logo and the website, colours, typography. But underneath it, there needs to be a solid foundation.

In fact, it’s the biggest part of the iceberg. It’s the part that you don’t see, it’s the emotions and the feelings that you want your customers to have when they touch and experience your brand.

But underneath it, that part of the work is again forgotten. It’s so easy to ignore it because you think you have a business plan, name and a logo and therefore you must have a brand, but they’re not necessarily the same thing.

And the value comes from actually doing that foundational work in the beginning.

Darren:

Well, it’s interesting because I’ve asked a lot of people this, but where do you think the brand resides?

John:

So, what do you mean the brand?

Darren:

Where does the brand exist? Because yeah, a lot of people say to me, “Oh, it’s the intellectual property of the logotype, that is the brand.” But for you, where does the brand reside or exist-?

John:

So, it’s certainly in the minds of your customers.

Darren:

Bingo, that’s the answer.

John:

And again, it’s the piece that’s not understood.

So, to go back to my point I was trying to make about how we have marketing and brand and we use them interchangeably; marketing really is the sum total of all the activities and tactics and strategies you employ, to get people to say what you want them to say.

And the brand is the sum total of all these experiences and activities that you do in the market to get them to playback what you’ve conceptualised and want them to be.

Darren:

Yeah, John, it drives me crazy when I read these articles that go, “Brand management’s dead.” No, it’s not. We need brand management more than ever before, because, brand management’s not about managing intellectual property or managing a logotype. It’s actually managing the perceptions in the minds of your customers because ultimately, that’s where your brand exists.

John:

Exactly. And it’s just, again, I don’t want to keep on going on about it, but I found since I’ve taken this role and even when I was a client, and having multiple network agencies work in partnership with us — I don’t think I truly understood what brand management meant and the privilege that it was.

Because we quickly move on to the tactical elements to try and drive a result, to look at transactions or every moment as a transaction, rather than an interaction, because the interaction is where the emotion comes in, where the real memorable experiences of a brand happen.

Darren:

Now, I’m so glad you raised that, that you were actually a client of Berge Farrell, and now you are basically running the APAC operation for them.

That reminds me of, I don’t know if you ever remember this, but a guy called Victor Kiam, who had an ad and I can remember it so well. He said, “This razor’s so good, I liked it so much, I bought the company.”

It’s like you bought into the philosophy of the company when you’re a client. What was it about working with this agency, this brand design company that was so appealing to you that you’d want to be part of that?

John:

So, I think personally, I’ve just been someone that has always been fascinated by brands because I’ve been a consumer of brands. So, why do I choose one brand over another, what is it? And what’s the psychology behind it? What’s the human nature behind it?

And when I was a client for — at the time, it was the second-largest brewer in the world. And I was marketing manager on what is now a Top 25 most valuable beer brand in the world, I had multiple agencies. Berge Farrell was not the lead agency, because then that was one of the major network agencies that did that work.

But I always found the work to do with the exploration, to uncover the essence of the brand and the narrative and the positioning as more energising because it was a combination of science and art.

It wasn’t just making pretty pictures because if you wanted that, it’s no problem to hire somebody who’s a freelancer to do that for you. But if you do that, how do you really know that that’s going to resonate with who you want it to resonate with?

Because if you hire someone just to be able to create a beautiful piece of art, you’re really just appealing to a target market of one, which is yourself, which is like basically marking your homework.

And so, what is this process? What is this process that’s sometimes hidden behind the scenes, but it’s so important to the longevity and success of a business and a brand?

Darren:

Now, it’s interesting for me that you worked in brewing alcoholic beverages because I remember a long time ago working on wine, and they said that the wine label is the ultimate influencer of which wine someone will buy.

When they walk into a liquor outlet and there are all those bottles stacked up there, the label has the biggest impact on customer choice, right? Except that there was a shortcoming there because what they overlooked is it is not just the label, but the total packaging. The design is not just about the label that gets stuck on the bottle. It’s also the bottle, the closure, the whole feeling that that gives you about the quality, the experience, the emotion of choosing that bottle.

John:

Yeah. So for over almost 20 years now, I think if we had to pin down what is our real specialism in dealing in the brand world, it’s really packaging design. And that’s where I admit that because I would do a lot of packaging innovation as a client marketing manager, it is also where a lot of my own interest lies.

But what you say is true. The packaging is probably the … for many retail brands, in fact, all retail brands (and I know some digital colleagues will have another view on this) — but it is probably the most seen and most high-value touchpoint for your consumers.

And then if you think of a retail environment, you walk into any Coles or Woolies or Dan Murphy’s or BWS or anything like that, the shelves are six or seven high and they’re as long as a basketball court.

And you’re faced with a wallpaper of choice, everything in the same category, which is meant to make it easier for you, but actually, it makes it harder because there’s so much sameness.

Darren:

And an overload of choice.

John:

Absolutely. In fact, it’s overwhelming sometimes. Sometimes you just don’t want so much choice. And the packaging, therefore, is an art in itself, beyond just the table stakes to which you need to compete in that category.

Sure, there are some basics that you need to have. But then the real science comes behind it, where you go, “Okay, well, how do you get differentiation?” And it could be ergonomic form, the shape of the bottle and things like that.

It could be a secondary packaging, where the six-packs come in. Or, and is it the primary label or neck or the crown where you have this opportunity to differentiate and rather not be playing in the sameness space because that is the visceral visual manifestation of your brand. And it’s so important to get it right.

Darren:

So, it’s interesting there, isn’t it? Because the first step is to get noticed, the packaging needs to get noticed. The second step is then to appeal. Because first of all, they noticed it, and then there’s an almost instantaneous judgment as is this reflective of what I feel? Is this what I want to project?

Whether you’re buying a bottle of wine to drink or take to someone’s house or whatever, there’s going to be this impact about how does that reflect on me. This is the emotional consideration.

John:

Absolutely. And so, in the beer world, you get three different types of bottles. Typically a clear bottle, you get a brown bottle, which is the most popular one and a green one.

The brown one is practical. It’s because it prevents the liquid from getting light struck and going off.

Green, less practical, but it’s more premium. So when people purchase green bottles, subconsciously it’s because of the way it makes them look and makes them feel.

And that part is discounted sometimes when you’re putting things on the shelf and you’re designing a brand solution end-to-end because you just overlook some of those things.

But there are pieces that if you think through them clearly, they are critical advantages. And you talk about how you want to get awareness and you want to get repeat business and things like that.

And by being consistent with the application of your brand in your labelling and all of that, that also then drives recall and helps consumers validate the choices that they make and quickly navigate to your product in a sea of sameness.

Because then you know you’ve done your job. Because ultimately, you just want someone to subconsciously purchase your product because they remember the attributes and how it made them feel.

Darren:

It’s interesting as well that the premium brands seem to be particularly good at using design, and especially brand design to reflect that premium quality. But it can also be used (and you touched on it a minute ago) to also position something as a middle-market, or even at a discount level.

John:

Yeah, and even master brands lending those credentials to sub-brands of theirs. A good example is Coca Cola. So if you think about it and you close your eyes, you can immediately see red, you can see the ribbon, you can see the typography of the word Coca Cola.

And then the master brand can credibly pass or “lend” these credentials on to other brand variants or line extensions like Coke Zero, Diet Coke.

And if they decided to do – because I know they were experimenting in the alcoholic space — that can also then lend clear credibility to these new innovations to help consumers navigate to their product versus so many others because it’s so well known. And from that perspective, people are just, “Okay, I can immediately trust this brand.”

Darren:

Now, there’s another thing about packaging. And I don’t know if you’ve caught up with this, but it’s a big trend or has been for a while on YouTube and that’s unboxing.

And the brand that’s considered the master of this is Apple. People actually make videos of having their product delivered in this world of E-commerce. It gets delivered to you. And part of the brand experience is actually the unpackaging or the unboxing of this product. Is this something that you guys get involved in as part of the brand experience?

John:

Absolutely. So, when I think of Apple, I think of the clean design, I think of minimalism and certain colour palettes that play out. But the biggest thing for me with an Apple product, whether it’s an iPhone or iPad or a Mac — when you lift the lid it almost feels like a vacuum, it almost feels like it’s a space….

Darren:

The precision.

John:

Exactly and it’s like it’s something designed in space and it’s high tech and it’s such a beautiful experience. So yes, we consider all aspects, we consider … and again, it’s not just physical form, but it’s like using all of your auditory senses as well. And how those play out.

And a big key, obviously, these days, besides that is sustainability. So, in the packaging world, consumers are aware of their impact on the environment and want to leave zero-footprint, they want to be sustainable, we want to have a circular economy. And so, what is the impact on the packaging?

The challenges that that poses for designers or particularly printers is that typically the products that we have these days that are biodegradable and recyclable, don’t really take well to the current inks and printing methods that are out there, so much so that you lose real estate to get your message out, or your brand message.

But that will come with time. We’ve got some partners that we’re busy doing some exploration with, so certainly, it’s something that we consider.

Darren:

It’s interesting as well because you mentioned sensory and we have sight, we have touch, the way packaging feels.

But we also have smell and hearing, and we’ve seen a big trend towards audio as a part of branding. Is that part of the consideration as well?

John:

Yes. We’ve done so in the past when we’ve done a new product development. We do a lot of point of sale and external activation designs because that’s all part of the brand design as the product hits the market.

And we’ve had a couple of activations in the past, which you use sound to playback key brand messages. I’m not sure if I can go through all of it, but there was quite a successful activation that we did in South Africa with a well-known beer brand where we used the sound of opening different cans. And then altogether it played a tune and it became such a well-known jingle amongst people, even though we never gave it a name. But because of that, it was so catchy.

Darren:

It’s amazing, isn’t it? The various triggers that you can actually make someone’s mind trigger. So certain sounds, the intel inside.

John:

Microsoft Windows.

Darren:

Yeah, windows; different sounds. In fact, I even noticed that the other day on the radio, that sort of chatter that started with the old dial up internet, they played that and it was like a whole sense of frustration.

John:

Exactly, that’s not I want to hear anymore.

Darren:

Not a good brand experience.

John:

No, it wasn’t. And so, you talk about using all your senses. That’s just all part of how we build brand recall. How we build the memories and building some stickiness in the minds of the customers where the brand lives to associate our brands or the brands that we work with, with a sound, a sight, a colour, a touch, a feel and to build those emotional connections and it’s key, it’s fundamental.

Darren:

It’s interesting how broad and deep this brand design goes because I think a lot of people are sitting there thinking, “Oh, gee, I thought it was just, come up with a logo, define the colourways, what are the fonts?” We’ve all seen those brand guidelines that are about six to eight pages.

John:

Yeah. And so, I think in reviewing some of my notes for the session, I looked at the American Marketing Association’s definition of brand, and even the Oxford dictionary’s definition of brand. And their definition is it’s the name, the mark, the symbol, the term to describe and differentiate a product or service from another.

So, immediately, it goes to the physical and that’s not the sum total of what brand is. And that’s probably a definition, in my words, of “branding”, which has more to do with the physical aspect of bringing a brand to life.

And so already, if you’ve got these influential institutions or bodies that are describing it in this way, then you’re creating this, you’re relegating the art and science of brand to something, which is simplistic and it’s not complex — but there’s definitely an art and science to the process.

Darren:

Well, it did originally come from the idea of branding and putting your brand onto something. So it was a very physical thing, but I think the sort of more psychological and scientific approach that people take, it means that it’s gone way beyond the physical. In fact, most of the ways of triggering a response to a brand are more than just creating a logo.

John:

Yeah. And I think our two founding partners, Steve Berge and Paul Farrell, will always say that they’re always very fascinated by human nature and what drives people, what makes people tick because it has an influence in the brand world, which is more emotion and feelings-driven.

And so why do people make the choices that they do? And how does that factor into your designs? And when you look at something, sometimes you can’t always describe why you like something, but you can always describe a feeling that it gives you. And that’s at the heart of it. That’s the anchor of what drives great design.

Darren:

John, one of the things is that there’s a lot of people in the sort of marketing ecosystem that say they’re brand strategists.

And advertising for instance, yeah, advertising agencies talk about brand strategy all the time. How do brand design and the more traditional advertising agency (brand strategy) sit side by side?

John:

So I think a brand design or the design of a brand comes from a brand strategy. So it’s always strategically driven. The analogy I use here is that it’s foundational.

You wouldn’t build a house by starting by building the walls and the roof. You’ll make sure that the foundation or concrete slab and the steelwork is all in place before you put up the walls and the doors and things like that.

And so the foundational work is what I describe as brand strategy. That is the foundation of which marketing strategies and advertising strategies and PR and experiential then springboard off.

Because then, you’ve got an idea of who you’re talking to. You’ve got an idea of how you need to talk to them. There’s an element of consistency that’s both exposed and espoused, which again, is the most important thing to build a strong brand.

And thereafter is where you put up the walls and things like that. So they complement each other. And I don’t necessarily want to say that it’s a linear sequence of brand strategy comes first and then everything else follows because they are certainly part of the same ecosystem, but I believe they’re separate and distinct in the roles that they play.

And they exist to complement and help each other drive the total recall and emotional connection to your customer.

Darren:

But what about the idea that advertising, for instance, is an expression of the brand and is about storytelling? What component of brand design is storytelling?

John:

I think a large portion of it is storytelling. I don’t think you can do marketing and advertising without knowing what your brand’s story is.

And I think then, advertising has a particularly fortunate role to play because it can tell that story in many different forms because of the different types of media that it can impact or that it has access to.

And then through those variations, there is a consistent golden thread about the original brand story, the founding brand story that must run through all of them.

And so, yeah, there’ll be many different iterations over the years, but there will be a level of consistency.

Darren:

Okay. So, we’re seeing a trend of going beyond the story now to the customer experience. And we’re talking about the customer journey. That would seem to me from what you’ve been saying, that brand design is part of designing the customer experience because it’s the way they interact and feel about the brand in that interaction.

John:

More and more, we’re doing design work also in the digital world. So previously it would always be we’ll have digital assets. But typically what that means is we have a logo that you can email, you’ll have a PDF that you can follow. But now, the digital world, which is not “either-or” to the traditional physical retail…

Darren:

The real world.

John:

Yeah, I suppose you could say that, but it’s more of a “and”. And I certainly think what we’re experiencing now with COVID-19 the world over has accelerated consumers and customers towards that space. So the E-commerce space and being more online, being in a more, always-on environment and wanting things immediately. So now, our brand design work also moves into that space because there is a brand touchpoint that is gaining in use and prominence.

So how do we write customer journeys? How do we make sure there’s consistency in that journey? And then every step along the way, how do we make sure that it’s again, consistent in what we want this brand to represent and the story that it needs to tell.

Darren:

So, looking back to your time as a Brand Manager or a Marketing Manager, and you’re there with your products, it must be incredibly eye-opening and mind-expanding to realise that there were so many other ways of communicating other than advertising and storytelling.

John:

Yeah, so many. I think one of the biggest lessons that I learned while working for this brewer is there is also the power of your physical touchpoint in actually speaking to customers.

I’ll give you an example. I previously worked for a Big Four Bank in South Africa, where it was that the number of staff in the backend, in the administrative functions, outnumbered the frontend – those staff facing clients – by probably a number of seven or eight to one.

And if you think about it, it’s kind of a little bit grotesque because the most important people should really be the ones that you are…

Darren:

The frontline.

John:

That is speaking to and servicing clients on a daily basis and here everybody wanted to be in the backend because unfortunately, it’s also where the bigger salaries and the bonuses were. And then fast forward to when I moved into this FMCG beer brewer, and it was that it didn’t matter who you were, you got to speak to customers.

You went out on visits into the market to experience consumers, the people who were drinking and also people who were selling. And it’s not like we had to give everybody a hymn sheet that everyone needs to sign off. They knew it, they understood what the values and essence of all the brands were – including the company brand.

And that talks to the power of actually getting employees on board so that they are an additional advocacy channel, probably more powerful because people want to buy things that come recommended by other people. They want to buy things from people that they trust, that have experienced it, “real” humans so to speak.

And that was the biggest eye-opener for me in terms of advocacy and actually having a brand that everybody is on-sides with – and that you didn’t actually need to have chest-beating sessions and light the fires.

Darren:

What it actually says is that everyone is aligned to the brand and the brand is aligned to the culture of the organisation. It’s interesting, isn’t it?

Because I’ve seen the same thing in services industries such as financial services and telcos, that the more senior and experienced and influential someone becomes, the further away they move from the customer, the very thing that you should be putting your best people at.

John:

And again, it was led by — it was driven by leadership. So, our MD and the executive leadership team would lead the charge so to speak. Of course, it changed the dynamics when they go out and meet customers or meet you if you’re in with your most valued customers.

But all the same, the intention was not to just to check up on things and make things refined. It’s just to make sure that customers knew that they were valued and that they understood that everybody lives the values of the organisation.

And again, it’s another aspect of brand building that sometimes people overlook because we always just look outwards towards our customers. But internally, we need advocacy as well. We need everybody to be on the same page.

Darren:

Now, some of the most successful brand designs happen to sit in the fashion industry. Whether it’s because the fashion designers really appreciate design. But it’s interesting how so many fashion labels have been built by having a great brand design that infiltrates every aspect from the actual designs on the runway, to the way it’s packaged, the packaging, to the store experience and all those things. What do you think it is about those… and up-market fashions do it really well. What is it?

John:

Yeah, so an obviously immediate example is Nike, starting out as a functional sports brand. And then through many years of being really good at what it does and being consistent at what it does, it’s been able to skip into other genres, and what I mean is aspects of your lifestyle.

You don’t have to feel uncomfortable wearing a Nike product to maybe an informal gathering, or when you go out to the club or something like that.

And again, it’s because it’s the importance of that mark, what that brand represents in the minds. And it gives you credibility that I’m wearing something that is meant to be a functional item, but actually, I’m here and I’m not in a functional environment. But this means that I like premium things because it is premium. And again, being consistent and designing the experiences that even spread to concept stores, another brand and customer touchpoint.

If you look at these concept store layouts — it’s not a hundred thousand items and ranges in there, there are a couple of choice items. And typically, they’re always the newer, premium items. And if you want to get more popular items, you’ll jump on the internet or whatever, and go shop in the online store. But that experience itself of the physical store is also a premium.

Darren:

And there’s consistency all the way through that. Your experience, your perception, everything about it is consistent.

John:

Yeah, absolutely. And again, I don’t want to hop on about it, but that’s…

Darren:

And yet, this is available to any type of brand. And then I was thinking about Chanel. And in fact, the brand is so powerful that just a photo of the product becomes the advertising. And then the brand extensions, it’s from perfume to fashions, to accessories, to lipsticks. It just extends across so many things.

John:

And that consistency allows you to build trust in the minds of your customer. That trust allows you then to be perceived as a premium product. And that premium product credential means you can charge more and so you become more valuable.

And you can really then corner your part of the market because you’ve been right from the beginning consistent in the way in which you’ve applied your understanding of your brand.

Darren:

And the reason I bring that up is that we’ve been living in a world of high consumption. And it seems to me that the future for marketers is how to increase the value of products, not the volume.

That, the future of business is going to be about producing brands that enrich people’s lives and make their perception of the value that it delivers to them. So, that growth comes from not selling millions of things made cheaply, but selling less at a much better margin.

John:

You’re right, I totally agree with that because I think the future is about shared value. So, value for brand, value for you, value for the communities in which you operate in, value for the environment.

And I think too often, I think we’re very quick or have been too quick to perceive value as purely monetary where actually value goes beyond that. Value can also be in the benefits you receive that you cannot quantify.

And so those are experiences and emotions in my mind. And how do you cultivate those experiences and emotions if you don’t know who your brand is and what it represents?

Darren:

Well, my cousin explained to me a long time ago that in economics, there’s a term called util. Do you know what util is? It’s a measure of pleasure derived from money spent. And I love it because it actually gives an economic measure to a lot of what we’re dealing with the management of brands.

That there is a sense of satisfaction, a sense of fulfilment, that we create a pleasurable experience for our customers in participating in the brand. And yet, we can still link that back to an economic term called util.

John:

I guess the trick is because there’s also an economic term which says, there’s a marginal return on utility, which means the more utility goes up, the less its value starts to become.

And then the trick is obviously going to be how do you keep it on that trajectory going up. And is that where you think about brand refreshes? Is that where you think about line extensions?

Darren:

I was going to say it’s called innovation. It’s the other side of marketing, marketing and innovation. Wasn’t it Peter Drucker there are only two things that actually drive value in a business, everything else is a cost.

John:

Yeah, absolutely.

Darren:

If only more businesses would actually understand that.

John:

Yeah. It’s a lost science or ignored science.

Darren:

So, from your perspective, what would be the ideal client to walk through the door tomorrow? What do clients need to understand; need, want, or desire to really get the full benefit of a brand design company?

John:

So, I think whether or not you’re able to distinguish the difference between brand and marketing is irrelevant. I think the best clients are the ones that have full trust in us, in our process, but also to point where they want to be active in getting involved in the creative process with us.

Very often clients go, “But we’re not creative, that’s why we’ve hired you. We’re not brand experts, that’s what we hire you.” But actually, you are the brand. You are the person that we’re trying to interrogate in that discovery process. Where we go: “let me unpack everything as to why you’ve created this business and then lay it all out and then simplify it into its simplest form” and then go from there and build it out from there.

And we want those clients that really want to come with us on this journey of discovery. Because really, it’s them, it’s their child, it’s something that they’ve conceived.

Darren:

So the way you’ve expressed that is it’s almost like a distillation of purpose, isn’t it?

John:

Yes. It’s exactly that. It’s exploring every single corner of your mind and your vision as to why you’ve created this, and then bring it down and simplifying it into that key one or two statements that are simple enough, but also have enough depth to be able to launch this brand into the stratosphere.

Darren:

John, this has been a terrific conversation, but I’ve just noticed we’ve run out of time.

Before we go, I’m just interested in, for you personally, which would be the brand that you think best epitomises great brand design?

Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media, and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley and special guests. Find all the episodes here

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Darren is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management. A Problem Solver, Negotiator, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3 - Marketing Management Consultants, founding member of the Marketing FIRST Forum and Author. He is also a Past-Chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, Ex-Medical Scientist and Ex-Creative Director. And in his spare time he sleeps. Darren's Bio Here Email: darren@trinityp3.com

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