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Managing Marketing: The Role of Men in Creating Gender Equality

Jamila_Rizvi

Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Founder and Global CEO, Darren Woolley. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

Jamila Rizvi is the Chief Creative Officer for the Nine Network’s Future Women. She is also an author, presenter, political commentator and writes regularly for the Nine Newspapers. She shares the benefits gender equality delivers not just to women, but the organisations they work for, the men they work with and society as a whole. Jamila also shares the Change Maker initiative aimed at middle management men, who are often the forgotten half of the gender equality equation.

You can find out more about the Change Makers program here

You can listen to the podcast here:

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Transcription:

Darren:

Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast, where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising, with industry thought leaders and practitioners.

Today, I’m sitting down having a conversation with Jamila Rizvi, Chief Creative Officer for the Nine Network’s Future Women. And Jamila is also an author, presenter, and political commentator who writes regularly for The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, the Good Weekend, and Sunday Life. Welcome, Jamila.

Jamila:

Oh, thank you for having me.

Darren:

No, it’s my pleasure. Because look, I’m really interested in this conversation, from the perspective of the changing roles and perspectives that we’re seeing with gender inside business and inside organisations. Because advertising was always considered a boy’s club, and that’s significantly changing. But with that comes some really big challenges for some people. And so, I’d like to get into that.

But first of all, could you explain to me what your role as Chief Creative Officer at Future Women actually involves?

Jamila:

Yeah, sure. So, Future Women is an organisation that’s committed to achieving gender equality and our focus is on careers in the workplace. We support our women members through leadership training programs, through confidence training, through access to mentoring and networking opportunities, as well as behaving a bit like a traditional media company.

We write articles, we have newsletters, we make podcasts, we write books in the gender equality space. So, we’re contributing to that public conversation as well. And my job at Future Women is to look after the creative side of the business, the content side of the business.

So, I am really fortunate, I get to touch almost everything. I get to be involved in what we look like to the outside world, our social media. I get to look at the content of our newsletters and our communications with our members. I get to lead our podcasting operation as well as the books that we write. And I am increasingly involved in writing our leadership programs.

Darren:

Okay. Because of course, Future Women was, can I say started by Helen McCabe?

Jamila:

Yeah, founded.

Darren:

Was she the founder?

Jamila:

She was.

Darren:

And Helen’s well-known for creating some amazing magazine programs or profiles and things like that. But this goes beyond that, doesn’t it? I pick up on it because you said it’s like a media company, but it’s also beyond that. It’s a networking opportunity, it’s a training opportunity. Do you think this is part of the model of modern media?

Jamila:

I think it has to be increasing because I think most commercial media organisations are asking questions about where their money’s going to come from because that old model of we’re going to get readers or watchers or listeners to come to us and we’re going to show them and they’re going to be happy with that and go home. That’s starting to fade.

Audiences are starting to block that advertising out. They’re starting to screen it. They pay less attention, they’re interested in brands for other reasons. And so, we’ve had to get smart about our advertising, smart about our partnerships and smart about what we offer.

And for us at Future Women, we found that we’re able to support the really quality journalism that we are doing through the money that comes in via our leadership and our training programs. And at the same time, we’re really proud of those leadership and training programs because when it comes to gender equality, so many women are saying that they feel like they haven’t been given the skills to get ahead in their organisation.

And especially, now with the economic downturn that’s been caused by the pandemic. There are so many women who are saying, “I was the first one out the door, I’m also the first one back again post-recession but I’m coming back to the workforce, doing work I’m less interested in. I’m doing fewer hours than I wish I was doing and I’m being paid less than I was before.”

Darren:

Because I think that’s one of the issues, isn’t it? That traditionally if you look at the famous Mad Men which were reflected in advertising in the sixties, it was very overt male chauvinism. There were these very distinct roles that any woman that was taking any type of leadership role really had to struggle or play to a male game.

Today, it feels like there’s more of a balance, but there are still some big issues facing women as they take on more leadership roles in organisations.

Jamila:

Yeah, that’s right. I think one of the challenges we face as a society now is that women have moved closer to true equality than they ever had before, particularly in workplaces. But what remains is harder to see and is perhaps less obvious. And so, I think people are often less aware and less understanding of it.

But we know that Australian women still enter the workforce on average earning up to 10% less than their male counterparts who are doing the same job. As men and women go along in life, women reach their peak salary earnings in Australia at age 31. At age just 31 is their peak salary earnings on average.

Men’s peak comes almost a decade later. So, that’s a decade more in the workforce, a decade more experience, a decade more to climb the greasy pole that they’re on. And then that haunts women for life, that gap gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

So, that women retire with around 60% of the superannuation of men. And so, this isn’t just a workforce question. This is a question of how we look after people in society. It’s a question of, who’s going to end up on the aged pension living barely above the poverty line when they’re older.

So, these are big questions, what’s happening in workplaces. We think women are rising in such a big way, but in 2020, there were zero new women CEOs appointed to the top 200 ASX companies. There are still more CEOs amongst those top 200 companies named Andrew than there are women. We’ve still got a fair way to go.

Darren:

Yeah, absolutely.

It’s interesting you say that because I know in the Media Federation of Australia, which represents many of the major media agencies, it has had a really big program to bring about equality, especially in senior management. And today, most of the agencies, media agencies, the big media agencies in Australia will have women in the senior management roles.

So, it is possible, isn’t it? To get this type of equality in particular and equality of opportunity, I guess not necessarily the outcome. But at least equality and opportunity for women to actually fulfil those senior roles in certain areas.

Jamila:

I think that’s right. Equality of opportunity is all that women are asking for. And I think that lack of opportunity is what has held women back for so long. And part of the conversation has to be about the fact that equality isn’t just good for women. Equality is good for everyone because a more equal diverse organisation is a higher-performing organisation.

The data has consistently told us that companies that have diverse boards, that have diverse leadership teams, deliver a better bottom line, deliver better efficiencies, deliver better outcomes. So, yes, it’s good for women, but equality is also good for organisations and equality is good for men.

I watch my dad who’s not too recently retired, spending time with my son and he is getting quality time with my son that he never got with his own kids because he was subjected to a stereotype and a set of expectations that he was the breadwinner in our family.

And his job was to go to work and his job was to support us. And my mom’s job was a nice to have for little extras, but he was the one supporting the family. And he didn’t get that time with his kids. He didn’t get that bond because it wasn’t acceptable in his generation.

And I look at my male contemporaries now, and I think fewer of them will experience that in retirement because they are having more balanced, more even lives. They’re getting more time with their children, but we’ve still got a way to go. We still know, for example, that the government’s paid parental leave scheme is accessed by 98% women and 2% men.

So, we’ve still got a way to go when it comes to actually evening that ledger. But it’s important to remember, it’s good for men as well; equality is good for men.

Darren:

Yeah. You mentioned it before Jamila, that with the pandemic, it impacted … and government policy seemed to impact women a lot more than it did men. You know, that a lot more women actually were put out of the workforce during the initial stages of the pandemic, and often with very little financial support during that time.

Is part of the problem government policy, or is it cultural, or where do we need to bring about the change?

Jamila:

I think the answer is a little bit of everything. Gender inequality is deep-seated. It’s something that we’ve experienced for as long as humanity has existed, it’s going to take more than a couple of generations to reverse it.

And it has infiltrated all aspects of our lives, whether that’s how we set up our family and who does the lawn mowing and who washes the clothes; whether it’s the culture of our organisations or whether it’s the way our governments behave.

COVID has had a fascinating impact in terms of a case study on how it’s impacted inequality. So, women, majority women — not all women, but the majority of women have been advocating for flexible work and flexible hours for decades. Women have been saying in order to be a good parent and also be a good employee, some flexibility in the way I work would be hugely helpful.

Now, some employers have given that to women in the past and some haven’t. A whole lot haven’t and there are lots of women who previously have reported being too scared to ask for flexibility and the ability to work flexibly because they were worried they’d be judged or undervalued or seen as unambitious, whatever it might be.

Well, they were told it was just too hard. “It’s too hard. We need you in the office. It’s important that we’re face to face.” Pandemic comes along and suddenly we’re all working at home and it’s possible. In fact, we changed our organisations, we changed them overnight to make it possible.

And “speak of the devil”, here comes my child. You’re all right, mate?

We learned that it is possible to work from home. One of the things we’ve seen from a government policy perspective is that, actually for a Future Women book, I spoke to Glyn Davis who runs a foundation, the Paul Ramsey Foundation, that’s about eliminating and ending poverty. And he said for a lot of people, the majority of women, 2020 was actually their best year.

If you were a very poor person living in Australia in 2020, it is quite possible that was the best year of your life because your access to a decent amount of money to keep you going was suddenly made possible because of the Coronavirus supplements and job keep that were offered to people.

We talked to women for the book Future Women who said that it was the first time that they had been able to pay their bills on time, pay their rent on time, and be able to not be worrying a couple of days before payday about what they were going to feed their kids.

So, COVID has done some truly terrible things, but there have also been some little policy experiments that have shown the agility of government and what government is capable of doing if it really wants to. And what that tells me is that on the gender equality front, I’ve heard for so long, “That’s too hard, that’ll take time. You’ve got to wait it out.”

It’s not actually true. We can change things quite quickly if we want to.

Darren:

Well, and when we have to. It’s amazing how necessity brings about phenomenal changes.

One of the observations I make working from home – the company that I run has always had flexibility. We have an office, but you go to the office when you need to, and if you need to.

But I’ve really noticed from a corporate perspective, our clients have become more accepting and more humane or human perhaps, just like when your son entered the room and you said, “Oh, everything okay, mate?”

I find that if that happened in a traditional business meeting, everyone would be shocked if you brought your child into the office. But now, that we’re going into people’s homes, there’s a whole new level of understanding, empathy, and acceptance that we never had before. Do you find the same thing?

Jamila:

Yeah, I hope that’s true. I think to a large extent, it is. I think we’ve been given this view, this new view from a new vantage point into people’s home lives and into the pressures that they’re facing. And for a lot of people, that’s children. But for a lot of people, caring responsibilities are diverse.

You might be caring for elderly relatives, you might be caring for a disabled sibling. I have chronic illnesses and my husband is my carer in that regard. And we all have responsibilities and pressures at home that I think for a long time, we’ve been expected to come to the office as employees. Like I am here to be a worker and we kind of forget about everything else that’s going on in my life.

Whereas I do think over the last 18 months, we’ve come to know our colleagues and our employees as full people, as people with other pressures and lives and things going on outside of the office. And I think being able to accept that is really important, especially when it comes to gender equality.

I think it was Annabel Crabb who said, in the Wife Drought, that the pressure on women is to mother like you don’t have a job and to work like you don’t have children. And at least something the pandemic has done for us is to remind us that there are other pressures. There are other responsibilities.

I’ve got to get my work done today. My boss Helen is extraordinary. She’s less fussed about hours and more fussed about me getting the work done. But I’ve also got a child at home and it’s the school holidays. And even if it wasn’t, we’d be homeschooling, we got to keep a six-year-old entertained today as well.

Darren:

Yeah. And that’s the part … I don’t know if you remember, but there was a guy on the BBC and this was two or three years ago before the pandemic. And his children burst in and his wife did the big dive to try and drag them out because they knew he was being broadcast.

And then there was all this, “Oh, that’s the housekeeper because she was Asian and he was English or Western.” And then, “Oh no, that’s his wife.” And there was a big thing, the media covered it. Today, this is happening every day and it’s not a big media issue anymore. I’ve got twin four-year-olds.

They will often walk in, in a conference call and suddenly this little head will appear from the side. And most people just accept this as doing business in a pandemic.

I’m just wondering like you and the point you made; I’m wondering how much of this humanity will be dragged across when people are either forced back to work or whether we’re going to carry some flexibility forward. And remember that we are all human beings first and employees second.

Jamila:

Well, I think that’s up to us, right? It’s up to how persistent we are. It’s up to how much employers want that to happen. But we do know that we are in a tight labour market here in Australia. Despite the pandemic, unemployment is low. The demand for skills is high because we can’t bring in overseas labour, skilled labour, the way we previously would have.

And I think if the employers want to attract and retain the very best employees, they’re going to have to make working life more livable for those employees. And a lot of that is about values and it’s about flexibility. And it’s about being able to bring your whole self to work.

Darren:

Yeah. Jamila, earlier, you mentioned that gender equality is actually positive for everyone involved and I absolutely agree with that. But there are also groups of people that are feeling a bit disenfranchised because they see the world as being limited in resources or opportunities rather than expansive.

And I know that … and I’ve had conversations with especially men, often in their thirties and forties that are feeling that the traditional path has become more and more crowded. What would you say or what’s the advice that you give to men as this change continues, and this equality firms and becomes part of the way we are? What should they be looking for and what should they be doing?

Jamila:

Well, I think the first thing I’d say is that is an interesting study and expectations. So, if you are a bloke whose father and grandfather before you, were used to dominating leadership positions in organisations, then you expect that that will continue.

If you are used to having 80% of the power in the room given to blokes like you, you think there’s going to be that proportion of leadership or powerful opportunities available to you in the future. If you’ve always lived a life of privilege, then genuine equality doesn’t look great to you. That doesn’t look attractive. In fact, genuine equality feels like you’re going backwards. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel like something you want.

I think it’s about us all taking a step back and saying, why do we think that opportunity and power have to be limited? Why do we think that some people should continue to be shut out because it benefits us only? And why do we think that power is finite and opportunity is finite? We know it’s not. We know we live in a world where human beings make new opportunities out of devastation every day.

We know that there are industries that over the last 18 months have grown and have thrived and new industries that have come about because we’ve all been stuck at home. I think the level of ingenuity amongst human beings is limitless and there will always be opportunities for those who strive for them if equality is possible in the first place.

And I think to those people, I would say equality is coming. Gender equality is coming, whether you like it or not. So, even if you feel uncomfortable, even if you feel frustrated, you can remain that way and get left behind, or you can switch your thinking and you can get on board and you can be part of a train that is leaving the station that is going to lead to better outcomes for you as an employee, for you as a colleague, and for you as a manager as well.

But if you sit there persistent and petulant, wishing the world back to how it used to be, you’re going to be left behind.

Darren:

It’s interesting from my perspective because we are in a very privileged role of often seeing advertising agencies tendering for business. And one of the things I’ve noticed is that the composition of those pitch teams has changed dramatically over the last 20 years.

The A team as they used to be called, were nearly all men, nearly all in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties, and almost all white and middle-upper middle class. Now, we’re getting a much broader group of people. And what I find is it also brings greater insight and often greater empathy because people are looking for different things.

I’ll just share with you a terrific story. There was one pitch and on the agency side, there were five men. And on the client-side, there was nine women and one man, and the one man was actually head of sales and marketing, but there was the marketing director sitting next to him. And those five men from the agency when they were asked a question, it didn’t matter who but they would direct the answer to the one man on the other side.

And the session was meant to go for an hour. It finished at 26 minutes. I remember it clearly because I said, “Are there any more questions?” And the marketing team said no, and I was taking them out. And they said, “The five men said that went really well. That went really well. We answered all their questions in record time.”

And I just looked at them and I thought you have no idea. You have no ability to see how you just alienated this room by this ridiculous power game. Now, women would never make that mistake.

Jamila:

Women are used to being not spoken to in a room. So, perhaps we are more likely to take that care. But I do think in the advertising space, I know things are moving, but as recently as sort of six, seven years ago, I remember being in rooms for pitches when I was working at Mamamia, pitching for business and talking to clients and talking to agencies.

And you’d be in there trying to talk to people who were trying to sell a car to working mums. And it’d be a room of eight blokes who were 25. And you’re trying to sit there, talk and tell them what your ideas are. And they’re telling you what mum’s think and you’re like, “How do you know? What would you know?”

Darren:

Yeah, well, the other thing is that diversity, all the studies show that diversity and what’s called cognitive diversity also leads to greater innovation and greater creativity. That having more than one perspective is actually the source of creative ideas and innovation.

Jamila:

Absolutely. We know that gender equality and that diverse groups more broadly, whether you’re talking about race or gender or ability, help build stronger and better teams, they build more engaged teams.

Equality is worth it; whether or not you want equality because you believe it’s the right thing to do, or whether you believe in equality because it’s good for your bottom line. To be honest, I’m not actually fussed, as long as you’re working towards it.

I think it was Bankwest Curtin Economics and the Workplace Gender Equality Agency that did a study 18 months ago that found that female top-tier managers add 6.6% in market value to ASX companies, which translates to more than a hundred million annually.

And there’s a famous McKinsey study from a few years ago that shows that companies with gender-diverse executive teams are more than 20% more likely to outperform their counterparts when it comes to profitability. But there is no arguing against the benefits of gender equality to an organisation.

Darren:

And the other area, because we’re talking often here, the context is working inside organisations, large corporations businesses. But what about on the side of the small business, the startup, the entrepreneurs as it gets thrown around.

We’ve got a fabulous example of women entrepreneurs really showing with a unicorn — is that what they call a unicorn with Canva. But is there as much opportunity for women starting their own businesses?

Jamila:

That’s a really complex question. So, firstly, women are starting more small businesses than anyone else, particularly mums. Because I think women have found that there isn’t necessarily the space and the flexibility to suit them when they enter parenthood in traditional workplaces. And I think a lot of women at that point, turn their side hustle or their love into something that becomes their job.

Now, that’s exciting and that’s awesome, but the new businesses that are attracting venture capital, the new businesses that are attracting big investments tend not to be those small businesses that are run by women. Venture capital and big investment tend to go to male-run businesses in overwhelming numbers still.

So, it’s sort of there’s two answers to that question. There’s excitement and opportunity in small businesses absolutely. But even in small business where you are running your own show, where it feels like you are autonomous and free from the sexism around you because you don’t have colleagues, you don’t have someone you’re working for, you’re still not immune because you’re still contracting or working with, or trying to get money out of, or talking to customers where sexism is at play.

And so, we know that the businesses that are also most likely to fail are those small businesses set up by women that just don’t get the backing of people with cash.

Darren:

Yeah, it’s interesting. Again, because when we look at advertising agencies owned and run by women, they’re actually a very small amount. The larger agencies are inclined to now be promoting women and have women represented in senior management roles.

But the smaller independent agencies are still largely dominated by men, which in some ways, what you’ve just expressed, could explain why this is happening because there’s just not the support or there are no opportunities for women-run businesses in this category.

Do you think most of it’s about finances?

Jamila:

Yeah, I think that’s dead on the money.

Darren:

Yeah, look, so there’s a program called Change Makers that’s been developed by Future Women. What’s the purpose of Change Makers and what’s it about?

Jamila:

Well, for a few years now, Future Women has been running these leadership programs for women both mid-career women and women in your executive roles. And I think we’ve been doing some really good things. We’ve been talking to them about confidence and leadership strategies and networking and mentorship, things that are going to help them get ahead in their career.

But we know at work, men are often the forgotten half of the gender equality equation and it shouldn’t be that way. We know there are a whole lot of blokes who want to be involved in this conversation. A lot of them don’t really know where to start.

And the idea of Change Makers is to deliver a two-day course. It’s an intensive course for men who are at a mid-career level, who are managing teams to give them the skills they need to be partners in the business of gender equality.

So, the idea is that over two days, the men participating in Change Makers will hear from leaders in a diverse number of fields of all genders. They’ll get the chance to learn from their success, their failures. They’ll get to learn what those leaders wish they’d known about championing gender equality at work earlier.

There is the opportunity to break into small groups to understand and workshop problems. There’s really amazing video content and practical presentations that the course covers. We look at everything from workplace laws around sexual harassment, right through to the way performance reviews tend to be biased. We look at tips for mentoring and advocating for women in the workforce.

And we also make space for men to discuss their own challenges. We look to make space for men to talk about the challenges for men when it comes to taking time for parental leave, for example, and the expectations there.

We provide a confidential environment for them to seek advice, to explore really difficult issues. And it’s been developed with a really amazing team of people, men, and women. And we’ll be rolling it out from December and it’s going to be really exciting.

Darren:

Look, it’s such a great idea. I mean on a binary basis of gender, it’s about 50/50. But as you’ve said earlier, often men are over-represented in key areas, especially in middle management. So, any program that actually brings the two genders together for mutual benefit has to be good.

I also think it’s an area and possibly, and call me out if I’m wrong — but I think the MeToo Movement has done a terrific thing about calling out inappropriate behavior in the workplace. But I think some men have been left almost unsure of, well, what is appropriate and what’s not.

You’d think that that would be fairly straightforward, but they start to second guess themselves or start to resent what they see as sort of a hidden line that they feel because no one’s actually bothered to explain what is acceptable and what isn’t. Is that part of this?

Jamila:

Yes, I think so. And some of this stuff is complicated. We know that there are areas where we have to be absolutely clear when it comes to sexual harassment or sexual assault in workplaces. There are clear lines in that space.

But outside of that, there are times when it is confusing, how you’re supposed to interact and treat other people, how you are supposed to use language. I think a lot of us are really scared about getting it wrong when it comes to language these days. And part of what Change Makers is, is about outlining the black and white, but also getting deep into the shades of grey.

And if I can give you an example that’s not about gender; I became very sick a few years ago and I’m now disabled and live with chronic illness as a result. A lot of people get nervous about whether they’re allowed to be a disabled person or whether or not they need to say a person with a disability.

And the truth is there’s not a right answer there. One of my dear friends is also a woman who lives with disabilities and she prefers that terminology. She prefers to be called a woman with disabilities. She feels if you call her a disabled woman, it defines her. Then that becomes who she is. And she can’t be anything beyond that. And I understand that and I respect that.

For me, I prefer to be called a disabled woman because Jamila with a disability, sounds like Jamila with a handbag, like today I’ve got a handbag, today I don’t. Whereas a disability is something I’ve always got. I don’t have the option of leaving it at home. That’s not something I have a choice about.

Now, neither of those are right, neither of those is wrong. But I think making space for a conversation and listening to people and giving them the respect to hear why something matters to them, will actually mean that we can send people back into workplaces with greater empathy, greater understanding, and they’re more likely to be doing a good, inclusive job at being an employer or a fellow colleague.

And that’s what we’re trying to do with these blokes. We’re not trying to tick people off. We’re not trying to talk down to them, not at all. We’re trying to engage them in a conversation, which I think too often we leave men out of, and this conversation’s not going anywhere unless we bring men to the table and make them feel powerful enough to make a contribution; to both listen and learn from women, but also think about these issues for themselves.

Darren:

Well, one of the things I’ve really enjoyed about our conversation today, Jamila, is that very early on, you said, there’s something in this for everyone. And I worry sometimes, because look, there is lots of media coverage about gender equality. You know, there are lots of sources online. In much of the media, it will get covered in various aspects and from various perspectives.

But I think once you start framing the whole discussion in what’s the benefit for everyone in society, not just the benefit for women, but everyone — then suddenly, there’s a reason to listen. Because I’m wondering sometimes if a lot of the conversation that’s happened up to now has been very much from what gender equality means for women, getting more representation in senior management roles, having role models that you can look up to of the same gender, celebrating the successes of women that are making their own rules and playing “the game” their own way, it all seems to be very much about women.

And so, it sounds to me that Change Makers is very much about pivoting that conversation and framing it, “Okay, guys, you are half the population. If you want to participate in this, here’s some entry-level or some ways of doing that.” Is that a reasonable summation?

Jamila:

Yeah, I think so. I don’t want to discount for a second the emphasis that we put on pushing for gender equality for the benefit of women, but we want to include everyone in this conversation.

And I know from talking to the number of my friends who have said at work and come to me for help and said, “I’m managing this team and I’ve got a woman in my team who’s outstanding, but her confidence is just not there. And I’m not really sure how to build it. And I consistently have this problem with women that I’m managing, and I don’t know how I’m supposed to make her realise that she’s good at her job.”

And a lot of that is probably gendered. And so, if we can work with men to educate them around gender inequality, and its impact on confidence, it’s going to make that bloke a better manager. He’s going to go back to work and he’s going to be better at his job, and he’s going to be better at understanding his whole team.

And he’s also going to support that woman to have a more successful flourishing career. So, it’s good for him, it’s good for her. It’s good for the organisation they work in. And that’s the equation that we’re taking into Change Makers. And we’re just hoping we’re not going to be doing it with one bloke and one woman he might be working with, but blokes and women all over the country.

Darren:

Well, look on that basis. It’s available for registration now, isn’t it? And you register through the website, futurewomen.com/change-makers. It’s on December 9th and 10th, is that right?

Jamila:

The first time we’ll be running, the course is December 9 and 10. We’re organising it to be run entirely online. There will be breaks. It’s to make sure people can get their work done through the day, but it is an intensive course over two days. And we’re really excited about what we can do with it.

And then into the new year, we’ll be running it a whole lot more times, including specifically for organisations where they don’t want to be in a mixed group with lots of people from different organisations, but they prefer the benefit of bringing it in-house. We’ll be offering both those opportunities and you can find out everything on our website, which is futurewomen.com.

Darren:

Look, that’s a terrific idea for organisations because often, a lot of the issues come up through corporate or HR rules or processes or things like that, will set an expectation, even define culture with an organisation. An organisation like Change Makers would be that chance to really get the alignment right through the organisation, wouldn’t it?

Jamila:

Yeah, I really hope so. And I think for big organisations where this has been an ongoing challenge, and we know those organisations exist in the public sector, the private sector and the not-for-profit sector — I think this is an opportunity to have a step change. To say, “We are moving on from the culture we’ve had previously that perhaps has had its problems, and we’re not going to tick off the blokes who work here. Instead, we’re going to recognize the blokes who could be leaders in this space, and who can help take us to the next level.”

Darren:

Look, this has been a terrific conversation. Thank you so much, Jamila.

So, you’re Chief Creative Officer at Nine Networks Future Women. We’ve been talking about Future Women and also Change Makers, great opportunity for men, you said in middle management to really have conversations around what gender equality means for them and the best ways of embracing that. Thank you for your time, today.

Jamila:

Oh, thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Darren:

I have got one question and that is from a personal experience, what’s been the most confronting conversation you’ve ever had with a man in a professional role?

Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media, and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley and special guests. Find all the episodes here

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    Darren is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management. A Problem Solver, Negotiator, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3 - Marketing Management Consultants, founding member of the Marketing FIRST Forum and Author. He is also a Past-Chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, Ex-Medical Scientist and Ex-Creative Director. And in his spare time he sleeps. Darren's Bio Here Email: darren@trinityp3.com

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