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Managing Marketing: DE&I in agencies and beyond

Nisha Rajamani

Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by TrinityP3 Senior Consultant, David Angell. Each podcast is a conversation with a thought-leader, professional or practitioner of marketing and communications on the issues, insights and opportunities in the marketing management category. Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals.

Nisha Rajamani is a long-standing media agency professional and more recently has served on the Media Federation of Australia’s DE&I Advisory Council. She also happens to be an Australian woman with an Indian cultural heritage. David and Nisha discuss her personal cultural journey, events that shaped her views of herself and her professional surroundings, the strategic development of the MFA’s DE&I strategy and what needs to happen in the future to ensure true recognition and embracing of diversity, beyond words.

You can listen to the podcast here:

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Transcription:

David:

Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.

My name’s David Angell and today, I’m joined by Nisha Rajamani, an experienced media agency professional currently working with Dentsu Melbourne, and more recently, a member of the Media Federation of Australia’s Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Advisory Council, which is a lot to say but it’s an important role. Welcome, Nisha, and thank you for joining me.

Nisha:

Hello, thank you for having me. That was a long mouthful David from a description perspective.

David:

Well, I’ve got a lot to say about you, what can I tell you?

Nisha:

Thanks.

David:

Look, let’s start with your role on the MFA, which is really … it’s a critical thing that they’re doing in the industry, of course. And we’ve known each other for many years now and we’ve worked together for a number of them, but we haven’t had much of a chance to catch up since you took this position on the advisory council. How did it come about and what were your primary motivations for joining?

Nisha:

Hey, this is a really good week to have this conversation.

David:

It is indeed, with IWD happening, yeah, absolutely.

Nisha:

Yes, so how did it come about? There’s a lot actually that has gone into this. It’s kind of been building up over time, I think, multiple elements. My upbringing across international cities, family circumstances, work environment, opportunity.

The seed of it though I would say, is really from migration. So, my family migrated from Singapore to Adelaide in 1991. I was one of only two Indian kids at our primary school of 500 plus children, and I experienced racism as many did and continue to do today.

But as an adult, the side effect of this is that I have constantly modified my individuality with this focus on fitting in, on assimilation and this meant when I started my media career, I purposefully modelled my accent on Julia Gillard. At the time, I thought she was the best representation of a true-blue Aussie and I would literally stand in front of the mirror and say “my name, my name,” and just practice it.

And that’s funny, and that in itself is probably not appropriate now. But I was just trying to fit in. And you do this and then you think you’ve got it. And I rolled it out to all the old school media reps and I’d often feel like “Hey, I’m winning, I tricked you into thinking I was the same as you.”

And then it dawned on me many years later, that I had actually also slowly tricked myself out of my cultural heritage because it doesn’t stop at the accent. Suddenly, I didn’t want to wear a salwar to the shop, so I didn’t want others to hear me speak Tamil to my parents. You know, I would say to my mum “Can’t you just say it in English, like why are you speaking in Tamil always?” And it just cascades from there.

And so, fast-forwarding to more recent days, in 2020 actually during lockdown it was NAIDOC week. The Cox Inall team at Dentsu — so, they’re the Indigenous specialist agency at Dentsu: hosted a number of virtual events for participation. One of which was an indigenous dance workshop where we learnt to tell stories with movement and so forth.

It was a really grounding experience and really made me think about what it takes to hold onto cultural heritage. And I thought of the fact that Indians celebrate Independence Day which is when the British actually left India and it took that nation, more than 50 years post getting independence to go through this process of reclaiming their identity.

And the big representation of that is the change of names of the cities. I talk about this a lot but Madras became Chennai and Bombay became Mumbai, and so forth. And I likened that to Australia’s First Peoples, and they are also trying to reclaim their identity, the names of their lands, fight for the rights of their people.

But they’re doing it whilst we are all still here, the migrant population. We are not the invading population, but for them, they’re still trying to find their way and manage all of this whilst everybody’s still here.

And so, that just made me realise the importance of everything, acknowledgement of countries’ RAP programs, more serious things like education for Indigenous children. Not just for all the changes that those programs actually make, but for the representation, the signals that we’re sending out to the community on what is important.

So, anyway, all of this is in my head and I asked CK, one of our leaders at Dentsu if I could work more with that team that organised that cultural event. And then I was introduced to the Dentsu DE&I council and learnt about the full scope of DE&I work.

I think we have this tendency to limit DE&I work to ‘let’s have a cultural celebration or talk about minority groups and that’s so limiting. There’s so much scope and depth in it.

There’s just a lot a lot to cover. And from my perspective, I also had Our Watch, which is a client and they’re a women’s advocacy group, broadly speaking. And they have taught me a lot. They do a lot of campaigns on gender discrimination and, education – like how to speak up when you witness discrimination

So, with all of this in my head, when the MFA decided to launch the DE&I Council, they asked each agency group to put forward someone. And so, I was nominated along with a colleague from Sydney. So, in total, there are 14 of us from different agencies selected to represent the industry and we haven’t looked back since.

David:

That is an amazing answer. It really is.

Nisha:

I feel like I’ve just talked at you!

David:

Well, no, not at all. I was listening to you. I mean, you’ve told a story there, not just answered a question. And whilst your Julia Gillard impression made me laugh-

Nisha:

Oh, I’m sorry, Julia. If you’re listening, I apologise.

David:

No, I mean the Julia Gillard impression made me laugh momentarily but I actually feel I’ve known you for how long? Nearly 15 years and it actually makes me feel quite sad. Some of your story there, I’m hearing that for the first time. The need you felt to assimilate yourself and almost suppress your own cultural identity to some extent.

Nisha:

That’s actually accurate wording. And so, that’s one of the reasons, one of the most important reasons I joined with MFA was because I don’t want others to have to go through what I did to fit in. You don’t have to do that anymore; you shouldn’t have to do it start with. But from an industry perspective, we’re so much more receptive and open to welcoming everybody and approaching this correctly. So, hopefully, we make that difference.

David:

Well, I was going to say like I’m listening to your story and thinking okay I’m guessing, but I’ve obviously not had direct experience of this myself. But I’m guessing that you wouldn’t be alone in this in feeling these things and taking these steps to try and put yourself into a career.

Nisha:

Yeah, I’m sure I’m not.

David:

So, these are the scope and depth of the DE&I as you rightly say, which extends way beyond the surface. There’s a lot of depth in it.

Nisha:

Yes, but also, like we’re agency people. We have to get this right. We’re an agency based on consumer behaviour and unless we’re embracing all of DE&I properly, our briefs, analysis, research tools — therefore, the recommendations to brands, everything … nothing is actually accurate. It will exclude significant segments of our population and there is an overall lack of intersectionality and only some recognition of gender, cultural, age diversity in everything that we do. Everything is a bit half-assed; can I say that?

David:

Yes, you can say that. If that’s your opinion, you can say that. It’s an adult podcast.

Nisha:

Unfortunately, yes. And so, I just think addressing that diversity and inclusion piece across the industry from hiring policies right through to our consumer tools will ensure a proper, truer representation of Australians and just bring out better recommendations from agencies. And therefore, the cascading effect, they’re better for brands and then ultimately, for consumers in the end.

David:

Yes, I can see the flow on effect, absolutely. And look, I think it’s a good segue into talking about … the other reason that this is a timely podcast, is that I think it was last week — correct me: I saw about five or six days ago, the MFA launched its own DE&I strategy — officially launched I should say, because you’ve obviously been working on it for quite some time, and making noises about it in the market.

But as I’ve read it, the objectives as I see them were articulated over a three-year plan. Year one is about awareness and education and engagement, and year two is about attraction and development of talent. And year three is about real change being seen by a measurement.

I mean your opinions have unpacked this a bit, but with the MFA specifically, can you unpack this a bit for us. What are some of the key strategies employed to achieve these aims and how are they developed?

Nisha:

Yeah, I can. And look, I was quite surprised when we all joined that committee. They’d done a lot of pre-work before they went to the market to even source the agency representatives. So, before the advisory council was set up, the MFA led by the board of directors, Amy Buchanan researched and consulted about the best practice for DE&I across the world and locally.

So, this has taken I’m sure over six months. They consulted with the IPA which is our equivalent in the UK (you probably know), who have already set up their DE&I a few years ago, the council. A DE&I expert here who had experience consulting with other corporates and industry bodies. The Diversity Council of Australia then also researched the DE&I journey that our agencies were at and their progress, and their challenge was to determine the industry’s role versus the agency brands.

And so, this strategy was then approved by the MFA board. So, year one is about awareness education and engagement. And once you’re in there and you understand from the research how much of a lack of awareness there is, you can’t really shift the dial until you’ve addressed that.

So, we understood that many agencies had recruited more diverse people. But what happened was that our people, structure, the culture — not everything was set up for them. And so, they ended up leaving. And the support that they needed from the people they work with to their office set up and everything had to be addressed.

And so, the council was set up over a year ago, what they learned is that you are not aware of how others feel if you don’t understand their lived experience. It’s the same as when you have someone in your family who is very ill and no one understands until you share or have had that lived experience yourself.

And so, year one for MFA is ensuring that everyone in our industry is educated and made aware or at least conscious of their bias. And then the industry focus is on sharing lived stories which you would have seen a lot on in that launch last week, and especially during key dates educating via all of their consumer-facing angles like from Engine to MFA 5+ and also the SPS Inclusion Program, which was super generous of SPS because it’s quite an in-depth piece. I’m not paid by them to say this but it’s a really impressive kind of training platform that they’ve put together.

Also, they held that leadership panel in an inclusion workshop prior to this industry launch. And so, that’s sort of the background work.

Year two the focus is on… well, they’re working on that now, so working with agencies to set up partnership pipelines like the SBS being one example and providing recruitment resources.

Year three is about real change from measurement. So, the goal is to be more aligned with the Australian population. Actually, quite simple if you look at it that way, and we started measuring by media in 2020. So, we now have more than 12 months of data. So, by 2024, we would like to see the measurement shift.

And also, particularly, loved this quote from this lady, Leila. So, she says “Data is the first thing you look at but the last thing to change.” Leila Siddiqi is the leading diversity charge for the IPA. And so, the true scope of opportunity for us in DE&I is industry-wide, because it can significantly impact your interactions with each other, but also, how we work with our brands.

And when education is the first step, then we can start to define what types of initiatives fall under DE&I, and how everyone in the industry, regardless of their level, especially, can still affect the progress and give DE&I to people on the floor, if that makes sense, and not just be this tick box thing that comes from the top.

And so, then hopefully, you bring in this cycle of education learning, implementation in stages, and then there’s a nice loop of growth, and then continuous development.

David:

I love the way you … I mean-

Nisha:

It’s a very long answer.

David:

Well, no, you’re giving a really good articulation of the ocean of depth that is here. And it’s really interesting, your first comment was … well, the first year’s about awareness, really. And then you unpack that beyond … you’ve got this surface level of DE&I is good, tick. Racism is bad, tick. Sexism is bad, tick.

Nisha:

Talk about the basics.

David:

Don’t abuse people in the office, tick. But there is an ocean… I mean, talking about things like lived experience and being aware of your own biases, and we haven’t even touched on people with disabilities. We haven’t touched on … we touched on indigenous people earlier on, we haven’t touched on LGBTQI people. I mean, there’s so much to unpack.

Nisha:

And look, when we say we haven’t — I haven’t because my knowledge and education in that space still has a lot to grow, but certainly, from an MFA perspective, like our Dentsu DE&I Council, we do have people leading those workstreams who have expertise in that, whose lived experiences will come to the forefront more.

But as an industry, you are right, we have this low-hanging fruit. So, gender equity is in the media a lot. And I don’t want to simplify this by saying it’s easy to address, but there are some things that are more in the spotlight, and you could look at pay parity and secondary care leave and all of that falls into gender equity.

But it’s much harder to address those kinds of things because they’re not so easy to spot for disability or yeah, any of the other workstreams, neurodiversity.

David:

Yes, I mean, I thought when I read through the strategy on the MFA website, I was really impressed with the course-based … I mean, you can do courses, right? You can literally do courses and I would assume it’s talking to a lot of what you just articulated about lived experiences and biases and how to educate yourself. It’s good that they’re giving the tools to do that as opposed to just saying, “This is how you should be.”

Nisha:

Yes, and it’s very applicable in that you do one course and then you come out of it and then you might go into a meeting, and you go, “Oh, that person just said that or I’m thinking this and that’s not right.” It’s very applicable.

David:

Yeah, but the consciousness of your own vices, we’ve all got them. We’ve all got them.

Nisha:

Conscious, it’s just awareness, it’s just self-awareness. Yeah.

David:

Well, let’s talk a little bit/pivot back to you a bit. You are very experienced in the media agency world and you’re a woman and you’re a person of colour and with a diverse ethnic background, what are some of your standout personal experiences, either good or bad in the industry?

Nisha:

I think I have been lucky to never have experienced direct racism or sexism — not any discrimination because I was a woman or Indian as far as I am aware. However, what did impact me most in my early years was the lack of diversity in the industry, which then contributed to that forced assimilation that we spoke about because the seeds were already there from childhood.

And I mentioned briefly about changing my accent at the first agency where I worked in an entry-level position. My friends would joke about training me on how to be Australian, like teaching words and pronunciation. And at the time, I was okay with this. This is in a media agency. But I didn’t see it as racist, but I saw it as if you went to a new town or like I went to Rome type thing, you would ask a Frenchmen how to pronounce something correctly in French if you’re in Paris.

And so, I kind of likened it to that, but I could still feel a lack of connection with the media reps and then went that step further in changing who I was and learning to say “mate” in a conversation casually and ignoring the fact that my name was often misspelt or mispronounced. I used to get “Nisha” with an E-R, I don’t know-how.

But we do that as Aussies, I think we add E-R to things. But it was mispronounced so confidently that I never had the heart to correct anybody. So, as a junior in the industry, I just never addressed a lot of these micro incidences. But the result of this transition to fit in was an overcorrection on my part, which then led to a real disconnect with my heritage and my culture and my family, which I’m now trying to address because I see it in my children.

And my son says, “I need some water.” And my dad will say, “What is he asking for?” And I’ll say, “It’s water daddy, like pronunciation.” And it’s from small things like that to a lot of things. This component is kind of a never-ending conversation.

But from a media perspective, I think the lack of cultural diversity was quite significant. Even in the early 2000s, there were not many Southeast Asians in media and meeting another person from an ethnic background was quite uncommon. This has definitely, I have to say changed with time as the Aussie population changed and the industry has reflected this.

So, I’m also heartened to see the diversity changes, although we still have work to do from an inclusion perspective. And actually, on that note, from an inclusion perspective, now that I think about it, I have experienced some discrimination that I would say now falls into gender discrimination.

There was a stage in my career when I worked for a small agency. And at that point, I was the only parent with a young child trying to pretend I wasn’t. And the agency culture was very male-dominated, very much work hard, defined by late nights and play hard, defined by lots of drinking. And as a parent with a toddler at home, you just can’t manage any of that. And the disconnect was significant.

And I would be embarrassed that my hours in the office were not aligned with others, working from home was never discussed as an option. And this really impacted my ability to lead with confidence: the quality of work, the client satisfaction, and also, my family balance. And so, from this low point, I had clarity on what good should look like. And I returned post-maternity leave with a second child, to a completely different world at Carat.

And so, there was a whole flexible working arrangement facilitated for me by my manager there. And look, and Dentsu as a whole before flexible working was a thing post-COVID, and we just addressed this issue where I was doing three days, but my nanny would always cancel and the whole week would fall apart and everyone would scramble to rearrange meetings.

And my manager just said, “Just work whatever hours you can. Just get rid of the nanny, do your own school runs and, you know, I’ll see you when I see you.” And it was great and it worked. So, we fired the nanny and I did my own school runs. And yes, I might not be present at 10 o’clock in the morning because I would’ve gone to do a parent-teacher interview, but then you log on at seven o’clock and you finish something.

And it’s a give and take, it’s not this perfect thing in a contract that we go, “Yes, you now have flexible working.” And so, that’s been really nice to see, and I see that now in lots of agencies and even publishers and networks. And I hear about shared GSM roles, part-time shared roles in senior levels, and I think we’re definitely moving in a really positive space.

David:

I think the last part of what you talked about there, yes, I think so. And I have two young kids myself, and I have a wife who works full-time and has had to juggle these things and has had some similar experiences. And I think we’ve all had our own biases when we didn’t have kids, regardless of being male or female.

It’s not having kids. Sometimes you do not see or understand or comprehend. But more broadly, I think it’s fascinating listening to you talk because like I say, I’ve known you for a long time and you are talking from a perspective of experience now that you didn’t have when you were entering the industry obviously, but life experience, as well as just professional experience.

Nisha:

Are you calling me old?

David:

In a roundabout way, yes. And maybe I need to go on the ageist course.

Nisha:

Oh, no-

David:

However old you get, you’ll never be as old as me. So, don’t stress that. I’m certainly older than you are, but-

Nisha:

Good save.

David:

And I look older too, but I think that’s fascinating. What would you tell the young Nisha? What would you say to yourself looking back?

Nisha:

Oh gosh, who gives a shit what other people think? That’s what I would say. Oh, this is the thing with fitting in and people-pleasing,… do you know what’s interesting though? We digress again, but I was facilitated access to this wonderful coach from Dentsu and she has helped me define some language around this, she calls us third culture kids where you fit everywhere, but nowhere, at the same time.

And she talked about how cultural backgrounds influence that people-pleasing nature. And how you just don’t say no because of some cultures it’s not in them to say no, because it’s considered very rude. And if you’re brought up in that, you’re never going to open then push back on anything. And everything you do is about acceptance and keeping the other party happy in a negotiation.

So, yes, so I would now say to my younger self, a lot of that information that I have. And just to take it easy and be yourself, which seems really simplistic, but hard to do, I think.

David:

I think definitely easier to say and hard to do. And that applies to all sorts … as we’ve discussed-

Nisha:

Everybody.

David:

All sorts of individuals with all sorts of different backgrounds. Let’s talk a bit about the future of DE&I, the topic is certainly getting a lot of airplay now.

But I think we’ve sort of articulated this all the way through. It’s fair to say there are words, there are actions, and then there’s sort of continuing day-to-day realities that we’ve talked to. Aside from the MFA and thinking of the broader marketing and advertising industry, on a scale of 1 to 10, where do you think we are on a broad sort of change continuum?

Or is that even too simple a question to ask? I don’t know, what else do you see out there that’s great, and what specifically really needs to change and fast for things to improve? On a sort of red button type of issue?

Nisha:

Oh God, I don’t know what’s red … everything’s important, isn’t it?

David:

I guess, it is.

Nisha:

I think media is quite a unique space because we’re very … one, I say this because we are very similar to the broader Australian workplace from a gender roles perspective. Like when you look at the early nineties, early two-thousands, where the ratio of women in senior roles on boards representing sporting environments, etc, were very low. So, the media industry was aligned with broader Australian industries on that.

And at the time too, it would’ve been typical for GSMs and sales directors to be older white men and sales reps and managers’ assistants to be women. And it was accepted for media assistants to be at the reception, set up rooms and get coffee and that’s what you did. But credit to the industry, our industry, we have also been really quick to understand discrimination, spot it, adapt positively to change.

There are women leaders across almost every media agency group now. I think as an industry, we can confidently say that pay parity is something that every agency and publisher is actively monitoring or reviewing. There are initiatives on gender equity, pride, cultural equity, First Nations, recognitions, ableism, and more recently, neurodiversity, everything’s being progressed, but at different stages across most companies.

It’s really difficult to place this progress on a scale because the DE&I streams are all at different stages of progress. So, I think gender equity, we talked about the low fruit, low hanging fruit before — it gets a lot of focus around parental leave or better supporting childcare and job sharing, that kind of thing.

So, other streams are more complicated. And so, a lot of agencies are doing things like progressing RAP programs and making efforts to properly acknowledge our First Peoples, but there are gaps everywhere. We pat ourselves on the back for progressing cultural equity because we celebrate … I’m making this up, but we celebrate Lunar New Year with our colleagues, but then we don’t learn how to pronounce their names correctly.

So, we all acknowledge the lands we are on in presentations, but when we don’t dedicate resources to RAP programs, that stuff takes a lot more work than I ever realised or appreciated. So, it’s a complicated space.

I actually had a conversation recently where we talked about providing teams the option to choose their public holiday. So, I could, for example, choose to celebrate Diwali and give up Christmas which on paper was great, but then you look into it and you go, “Hang on, I’m not just Indian, I’m Indian-Australian, and Christmas is as important to me as is Diwali. And technically, I want both. I’m going to have my cake and eat it too.”

And hang on, that’s not even the half of it. What happens to those who get Christmas, but you don’t celebrate Diwali? And so, why should I get more public holidays than you because … right?

David:

That’s what I mean. I feel discriminated against.

Nisha:

It’s a really complicated space.

David:

Yeah, it is.

Nisha:

And so, I don’t think it’s fair to put the industry on a continuum because everybody’s trying and that’s what we can ask for and learning. And the hardest thing about being in this as an older person is that you are unlearning things. I think it’s almost easier to learn it right the first way.

So, there’s hope for the new industry entrants now, but when you’ve grown up doing things the wrong way in the industry, and then having to learn to, you know, undo that and then approach it the right way, I think that’s going to take more time, and we just have to be mindful and kind about that.

David:

But I think there’s so much power and empathy, and you were just demonstrating empathy just then. I mean, you said kind, but I think empathy is really, really important. And that works both ways. Old white men like me do still exist. And I think it’s important to have empathy on all sides without being too ridiculous about it.

Of course, there is a need for DE&I, there’s no doubt about it. And of course, things still need to be improved. But I worry sometimes about the combative nature of the debate.

Nisha:

It’s really combative. And we spoke about this just before we started, but I really benefited from hearing from Dr Susan Carland at IWD this week. So, she was the first speaker I heard in a series of speakers this week. And she spoke about having grace in our interactions and not being so binary. Like ‘you’re a feminist, why do you have children or ‘you’re Muslim, how can you teach feminism?’ That’s something that she faces.

And it’s important to remember that we are just all still learning, and we need to provide this safe nonjudgmental space for that, to foster growth and understanding. And you also asked me there’s action and there’s real action, and where are we on that change?

I want to think of this as a media campaign, can’t take the media out of the girl. So, we are probably at early stages on the continuum, I’d say, like a 3 out of 10, where the-

David:

Schedule version 1 of 15 that we’re going to get to.

Nisha:

Where the awareness I think is just picking up and some key messages have better engagement than others. And then we still need to build up that awareness across all the workstreams and lead people into education before we can build consideration and trial because once they try it, I really think that we will never go back to how things were.

David:

Yeah. Let’s hope so. Alright. Well, look, you mentioned that you can’t take the media out of the girl, I can’t take the media out of you either, so we should change gear a bit and talk about what’s bigger.

I mean, you’re working with Carat, an agency that, I mean like many others, has seen a lot of changes and I’m talking commercially now as well as with DE&I and everything else.

Nisha:

Of course.

David:

As a media professional, what are the hot buttons for you? A media leader, what are the hot buttons for you right now? What are agencies and marketers needing to get their heads around in the media space?

Nisha:

Ah, good question. So, everybody is talking about data still. And everybody is still-

David:

Since the dawn of time.

Nisha:

Talking about knowing the consumer best and it would be remiss of me to not talk about injecting the DE&I piece into that because … there was a good piece… who shared this? Somebody shared a good post from Sir Martin Sorrell recently, and he’s basically said he talks about the fact that we’re all losing our identity a little bit because we’re all getting too big.

And I think there is a bit of that. We’re all trying to do everything, and I think there’s a little bit of getting back to basics and thinking about, like look at the floor and think about how we can truly bring some of that DE&I work into our teams and our consumers and our tools and all the basic things that should be there. And then we can take it to the clients and say, “Hey, you are lacking in these spaces. This is what it should look like.”

And we’re still focused on how many other things can we get in front of the client before it’s too late, so they can buy more products. And not all of them are often at their full potential if that makes sense. So, I think there is a bit of getting back to basics to happen here. And this is the first year post-COVID, we’re probably all fully getting back into the office and learning how this hybrid working thing is going to happen.

A lot of new offices don’t even have the space for everybody if everybody turned up on the same day to work. So, I think that whole concept of grace and just taking it one step at a time really has to apply this year and just come back to basics. That’s what I think is the hot button.

David:

Yeah, I completely agree, I completely agree. And I think that’s a really good place to leave it. We’ve talked about your life story in media so much…

Nisha:

Oh, God, I know.

David:

I knew some of it but not all of it.

But I wish you and the MFA all the best with the DE&I. I think it’s a great initiative. I think there are some great tools on there. I encourage everybody to go and look at that website. Whether you’re in media or not, actually frankly.

Nisha:

Yeah, I think it’s open.

David:

Go and have a look at that website because there are some really interesting things on there that you can explore and let’s all just continue educating ourselves. I think it’s a great position to take. So, thank you again and well, maybe we’ll get some lunch now, what do you think?

Nisha:

Sounds great. Thanks for having me.

Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media, and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley and special guests. Find all the episodes here

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    David has been a media agency practitioner for fifteen years, holding several senior positions in the UK and Australia. During this time, he has worked with a number of blue-chip organisations. David is the General Manager and Head of Media at TrinityP3. He lives in Melbourne with his wife and children.

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