John Elbing, the author of ‘Story Building: Your Brand from Their Standpoint, explores the critical differences between storytelling and story building, emphasising the importance of understanding the consumer’s perspective.
John shares insights on how effective storytelling can create emotional connections, enhance brand recognition, and drive consumer engagement. The conversation also delves into the complexities of B2B marketing, the founder’s advantage in storytelling, and the need for consistency across different audience segments.
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Transcription (Edited):
Darren Woolley:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners. If you’re enjoying the podcast, please like, review or share this episode to help spread the wisdom from our guests each week.
Compelling storytelling is a vital business skill. As we have discussed previously, many brands and agencies would describe themselves as excellent brand storytellers. My guest today believes that many brands are making a big mistake in the storytelling process by focusing purely on the consumer’s perception. Instead, he recommends that brands and their agencies should use “story building” when developing and telling a brand story.
To explain the difference between storytelling and story building, please welcome the author of the book Story Building: Your Brand from Their Standpoint, John Elbing. Welcome, John.
John Elbing:
Hi Darren, I’m very happy to be here and to talk about my favourite subject: storytelling. Well, story building, actually.
The Human Need for Stories
Darren Woolley:
Well, let’s start with storytelling before we get into the distinction between the two. From my perspective, storytelling is such an important human skill because it really is the way that we passed on knowledge for thousands of years before the invention of the printing press. Oral history was the way that human beings could pass on learnings and knowledge from one person to the next. It must be part of the very existence of being human—the ability to tell stories.
John Elbing:
I’m completely convinced. I think our brains evolved by processing stories, so we’re programmed to connect with them. We transfer information, but we also transfer emotion. We connect, and it is always through a story. There are too many people that try to talk about data and facts to convince people, but actually, the story is what connects.
Darren Woolley:
I wonder when in human history we suddenly re-locked this door and started to think that facts and rationality were the most compelling way of communicating, or even more importantly, persuading someone to a particular perspective. Storytelling has quite an emotional component which, as we know from behavioural psychology, is essential in engaging the audience and swaying their opinion.
John Elbing:
Yeah, I don’t know. It could be something around the Industrial Revolution when suddenly things were being systemised—Taylorism and all those things where it’s all about money, KPIs and ROI. But then you watch a show like Mad Men, and it’s all about stories.
Discovering the Power of Story Building
Darren Woolley:
Exactly. So John, when did you first start to realise the power of stories, or when did you start to really become interested in storytelling?
John Elbing:
I’ve been coaching startups and I got into a lot of methodologies. I studied design thinking, I have 100 different canvases and I use a lot of post-its. I would go into very specific exercises with companies and they would come out with all this insight and “shiny eyes”. And then Monday morning, they weren’t quite sure how that fit together or what to do.
I started reading about storytelling and I realised that forcing them to create a story—because stories are formulaic and have a framework—requires you to put things in a certain order. Suddenly they had to decide. Before, it was, “Hey, we do everything for everyone and it’s great”. Suddenly you have to say, “No, we’re talking to these people and not to those people”. You have to decide what is important and what is less important. Getting someone to admit some of their features are less important really creates a sense of focus. Before they even use the story for marketing, it serves them internally by creating coherence about what they are doing.
Darren Woolley:
It’s proven that story is the way we make sense of the world or concepts. I think a lot of people think that stories are just something that you tell, and the danger is it becomes more like a list of features than a cohesive, structured story.
John Elbing:
They say that there’s only about seven stories in the world; all the movies and novels you ever read can be boiled down to a certain number of structures that work, like “rags to riches”. Those formulas get us caught into fiction, but they also help in other kinds of communication.
The Methodology: Recognition, Perception and Projection
Darren Woolley:
When you’re working with a startup and the founders have come up with a story, what is the structure that you’re looking for?
John Elbing:
I’ve developed a methodology—not something completely new, as I’ve stolen from everywhere until I found something useful. One answer is the emotional part: as a listener, am I engaged in this story or does it look like a catalogue?
Part of the book is a mental model for when you encounter a brand. First, you have to recognise yourself in the brand. Only if you think, “They work with people like me,” are you going to look at what the offer is exactly—that is perception. Then, even if you’re interested in the offer, there’s a moment of doubt where you project yourself into what it’s going to be like.
I call that Recognition, Perception and Projection. Often companies only do “perception”—they only do the “here’s my product” thing. It’s up to you to figure out if it’s for you and to imagine what it’s going to be like. That creates so much hesitation. If I don’t recognise myself in your brand, I’ll just skip. You’re just one click away from your competitor.
The idea is to tell your customer’s story. They recognise themselves, imagine what it will be like and they think of this positive future. If you can build a story that brings people through those natural steps, you’ll get the right people to connect at the beginning because the story says, “We work with this kind of person”. If you don’t recognise yourself, you’re probably not the right client, which is a good thing—it leads to a better quality pipeline.
Selling a Transformation
Darren Woolley:
It’s interesting, this idea of recognition—that people can recognise something relevant to them. In advertising, there was always this idea of being “aspirational”—that the audience may be mid-market, but by adding this brand to their life, they can be transcended up to something better.
John Elbing:
I would put it this way: you walk down the street wanting a drink with a friend and you walk by some cafes without slowing down, but for others you say, “Ooh, that’s for me”. Recognition is a mix of your identity, aspirations and challenges.
If I’m an independent consultant looking for a CRM and a website says, “We’re the best CRM for teams,” they lost me immediately because they don’t work with people like me. Later in the story, there is the idea that we’re all selling a transformation. Look at the problems we solve, but then imagine what it’ll be like to step up. I’m not selling you a suit; I’m selling you the fact that you’re going to be a professional.
Darren Woolley:
You’re becoming a barista! No, I like the idea of transformation because Hollywood movies always have characters that start in one place and, through the telling of the story, transform into a better or different person. In advertising, that’s always, “Your life will be better, happier or sexier”.
John Elbing:
A lot of it can be translated into emotion. You won’t necessarily be rich, but you’ll be confident. At the beginning, you’re frustrated with your situation, and at the end, you’re going to be relieved. I’m not selling you a financial service; I’m selling you peace of mind instead of worry.
Story Building vs. Storytelling
Darren Woolley:
How would you define, in an elevator pitch, what story building is versus storytelling?
John Elbing:
Storytelling has become a buzzword and often boils down to how to tell your story better—putting a nice coat of paint on it. Story building is asking: what story should you tell?
In the book, I use a series of canvases where we step into the customer’s shoes to understand their aspirations and challenges. Then we look at the company and how it matches that to build the customer’s story. The sequence is important: you have to get them to recognise themselves first, then they’ll be interested in why you are different and what your offering is.
Then they think, “Yeah, but that’s going to be complicated. What is it going to be like?”. If I have a great CRM but I imagine I have to copy-paste from Excel and find things in my email, I won’t come back. If you can bring them through what it’s going to be like and how easy it will be, they’re already primed for the relationship. Once you’ve figured out the sequence, it can be a pitch, a website or a campaign.
Darren Woolley:
I find storytelling works very well as a sales technique when you’re one-on-one, because you can customise it to visual cues and insights from the conversation. It must be more difficult when the story exists in space and time, like a website.
John Elbing:
Well, I’ve found that’s the case. If I land on a website that says, “We help 60-year-old white-bearded independent consultants living in Switzerland,” I’m going to think, “Ooh, that’s me!”. If it’s too vague, I’ll probably skip because our attention span today is like a goldfish. A website that describes your ideal customer makes them feel seen.
You need a story for your company, but then you can have stories for specific segments or product ranges. Look at Nike—”Just Do It”. They target people who buy sneakers to run and people who buy them to look cool. Those are actually the same person—a 20-year-old student who has one pair to run and one pair to look cool. “Just Do It” connects with both because it’s an aspiration you can bring into any part of your life.
Putting the Customer Behind the Wheel
Darren Woolley:
The structure of Nike is about effort, focus and being victorious. They are very good at showing well-known sports stars as being very human, showing their foibles as well as their strengths.
Car advertising is similar; it’s not just the product, but those driving shots in beautiful scenery with perfect lighting. It puts you behind the wheel. It’s very much about “Projection,” isn’t it?
John Elbing:
Exactly. Whether it’s a family car or a sporty one, people think, “Ooh, that’s me, I could drive like that”. Even a telco website will show happy people having a picnic in a park. What does that have to do with the telephone? It’s saying, “Clients of this company look like that—they look like me”. You won’t project yourself into a picture of a building; people are important.
Owning a Category and Niche Positioning
Darren Woolley:
And then the “Perception” part is the fact that telcos are all about connection in the 21st century. So, it’s: Recognition (it’s relevant to me), Perception (here’s the promise) and Projection (I want that).
John Elbing:
People also want to put you in a box to compare you to something. If you own a category, that is a very powerful position. Think of energy drinks—Red Bull owns that category with a 50% market share. I do story building, not storytelling. Being different is important because there’s so much offer out there. If you say, “Normally it’s like this, but we do it differently,” that helps you stand out. I’m not sure companies talk about their difference enough.
Internal Alignment and the Trojan Horse of Strategy
Darren Woolley:
So, what is the emotional part of story building? What does it make people feel that gives it a benefit over storytelling?
John Elbing:
When I work with companies, I’ve found two ways this works. Some companies are in a hurry for a marketing message after a merger or a new product launch. We build one that’s structured, but story building is a bit of a “Trojan horse” for positioning strategy. They step back and realise, “Actually, we’re talking to these people, and we can niche down”. Others come in specifically to rethink their positioning, and I use story building as the tool. There are often “aha moments” where they see the structure and realise, “Yes, that is my customer”.
Darren Woolley:
What’s the emotion?
John Elbing:
It depends on the stage of the company. Established, 80-year-old companies see themselves from the “inside out”—they say, “I do this, isn’t it great?”. When they flip the script and look at themselves from the customer’s standpoint, they see how they fit into that world. It gives them focus and excitement.
Darren Woolley:
Your book’s subline, “Your Brand from Their Standpoint,” is really the promise. Story building starts with the customer and builds back in. Everyone wants to think their business is customer-centric, but it rarely is. When you’re inside the factory looking out, it’s very hard to look back in as a customer.
John Elbing:
Exactly. A side effect is team alignment; they build the story together. I had a company where 10 customer-facing people had 10 different answers for what they did. By working through this, they built a common story. One guy said, “I can finally tell my mum what we do here!”.
Story Building in B2B and Complex Organisations
Darren Woolley:
In B2B, there are a lot more people involved in decision-making, from the CEO down to operations. How does that complexity impact Recognition and Projection?
John Elbing:
Usually, we follow the value chain. You might be selling something to a company so they can better serve their own clients. You show how the end customer can be happier, which makes the person serving them better off. In sales, you can have a tech story, an ROI story and an operational story—all using the same structure. I’ve even done this with startups talking to investors; the company becomes the product and the investor becomes the customer. You can even use it with your spouse when deciding between the mountains or the beach!
Darren Woolley:
Where is the anchor for consistency across all these different stories? It has to be in “Perception,” right?
John Elbing:
Partly it’s a “proxy recognition” where you recognise your customer. If I’m selling to a business, I say, “Your customer has this problem, and we can help you help them better”. Or, for a tech person, you address their specific worries about security or privacy within the bigger story. You make them the hero because they set up a system that works.
Overcoming Internal Resistance
Darren Woolley:
Do startups get the story faster, or does size not matter?
John Elbing:
Size doesn’t matter. I’ve worked with deep tech startups where founders are so focused on the technical solution that they talk about their amazing AI but miss the story. Established companies often have “drift”—they’ve been telling the same story forever and it’s not the right one anymore.
The biggest hurdle is that a company is not the hero of the story; the customer is. You are just the guide—the Yoda to their Luke Skywalker. Getting them to shift that perspective and have that humility when they are so proud of what they do can be a challenge.
Darren Woolley:
Any “red flags” when talking to an organisation?
John Elbing:
If they have a rich customer experience, there are stories to tell. If I’m a plumber, the story might be as simple as, “We’re on time,” because the customer’s worry is having to take a full day off work.
I once worked with a nonprofit in water purification. They thought their problem was “people getting sick,” but we realised the actual problem they solved was “trucks getting stuck in the mud”. What keeps the customer up at night is often something different than what the company thinks.
Darren Woolley:
It’s been a fantastic conversation. Thank you, John Elbing, author of Story Building: Your Brand from Their Standpoint.
John Elbing:
Thank you, Darren.
Darren Woolley:
One last question before we finish: what’s your favourite brand story of all time?
