Jo Gaines is the AVP Salesforce Data & Audiences & Co-VP APAC Salesforce Women’s Network and moderating a CMO panel at Ad Tech Sydney in March 2019 to discuss taking customer experience to the next level. Jo shares her view on the fact the market has reached a tipping point where many organisations are building their brands through managing customer experience enabled by technology platforms and customer data.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing and today I’ve got a chance to sit down with Jo Gaines who’s the Area Vice President of Salesforce Data and Audiences and Co-VP of APAC Salesforce Women’s Network. She’s also leading a panel at this years’ Ad Tech Sydney next month discussing shooting out the lights. Welcome, Jo.
Jo:
Thank you. Thanks, Darren, great to be here.
Darren:
Well thank you for inviting me to Salesforce. It’s a great view over Darling Harbour today, isn’t it?
Jo:
It’s fantastic. We like to position ourselves right in the heart of what’s going on in each major city.
Darren:
So, shooting out the lights, what does that mean? Because it sounds like gun control.
Jo:
Oh god!
Darren:
But I’m sure it’s not.
Jo:
No.
Darren:
If we were in America, a title like that, you’d have a big turnout of the NRA but uh…
Jo:
Yeah, maybe it should be shooting for the stars or something, to me, it represents endless possibility but also completely changing the way we look at and in this particular case, the way we look at customer experience and the way we as brands and as technology companies put consumers at the heart of everything we do and change our philosophy around everything.
You know, change the way we view campaigns, change the way we view product marketing. Make it all about customer experience and lifetime customer value.
Darren:
You’re right because there’s been a lot, the last few years there’s been lots of conversations and lots of opinions but the feeling I get talking to various people across the industry, there hasn’t been a really clear view for a lot of marketers about what that actually means and what that looks like. But do you get the sense that we’re at a tipping point or a turning point in that sort of evolution now?
Jo:
I think we’re absolutely at a tipping point and you’re starting to see businesses look at bringing different departments together so they’ve previously had a CRM team and an acquisition team and a retention team within the marketing function and now they’re bringing all that together and calling it ‘Customer Experience Management’ or ‘Customer Relationship’.
That’s a great step in the right direction to just at least get the right people collaborating and saying, “Hey, these customers of ours have lots of different products at lots of different times in their lives or they transition out of one product into another. Wouldn’t it be great if we made that conversation seamless? If we connected that conversation together so they don’t feel like they’re dealing with a completely different company every time?”
Darren:
Well you know, and it’s true, you know, you hear a lot of talk about a single view of customer. But so many organisations are so far away from that because of the traditional siloed approach.
Jo:
Yeah. There’s many, many large companies with large budgets who are running multiple campaigns at any one time, talking to the same consumer about completely different products and completely different decisions where it should actually you know, they should actually be talking to them about how those things are related.
Darren:
And do you think the size of a company is actually often more of a hindrance than a help?
Jo:
Yeah, yeah, I think what we’re starting to see from some SMBs and you know, some of those mid-market companies is fascinating and what we’re seeing in banking for instance, these digital banks that are now getting licences to trade, digital first who are investing in technology first and saying, “We don’t have the bricks and mortar, we don’t have these cumbersome set-ups to manage, we can actually go in and use technology for setting up CRM, lead management, nurturing, and start to have a true lifetime conversation with a customer across every channel and every touch point”.
Darren:
Yeah because we’ve seen these big organisations when it comes to transformation, really struggle with being able to transform but as you say, these smaller start-ups or even medium-size businesses, because they are starting out from almost a green field site, they can then plan customer experience from day one, can’t they?
Jo:
Yeah, I was also hearing this morning from one of my colleagues about a jeweller in the city, quite a famous jeweller and he used to have a very famous storefront in the bottom of the Hilton and had a lot of foot traffic, a lot of people kind of coming in and out and at any given time, he’d have someone who he’s never interacted with before.
Then he has one of his most valuable customers in the shop at the same time and he needs to have different products available and out for different types of buyers with different budgets. He’s completely removed that. He’s gone to the top, some obscure building, level five, appointment only and now he uses technology to completely drive his business and he’s taken away a whole lot of the stress from having that bricks and mortar, street traffic and he’s doing better than he’s ever done before.
Darren:
Well given up the walk-in that you know nothing about so you can’t customise the experience until you get…
Jo:
Yeah, unpredictable.
Darren:
Until you get to know them and you wonder sometimes if the he trouble it takes to convert one of these walk-ins is worth it. Whereas I imagine most of his business is either coming from lead generation or word of mouth referrals. So coming from existing customers that have already convinced this new customer how good this service is.
Jo:
Exactly! And then you can start to put a score against that lead and you can start to decide how you want to communicate with them, it’s fascinating.
Darren:
And reward the loyalty of your existing customer who’s made the referral in the first place and encourage that behaviour.
Jo:
Yeah. And the other trend that we’re seeing which I’m really passionate about, you talked about my role on the women’s network for APAC, is businesses with a clear purpose and clear values and we’re starting to see this emergence and I do think we’re at a tipping point here, of customers wanting to transact and trade with businesses that operate with a purpose and get behind a purpose and really live, embody that purpose in everything that they do.
Salesforce is one that I know and love but there are many examples.
Salesforce has four very clear values that we live by every day and every single employee knows them so; trust, equality, customer success and innovation are our four core values. Our co-CEO, Mark Benioff is very, very active on Twitter talking about the social responsibility of technology companies, particularly in San Francisco where there’s a massive homelessness problem. And he’s incredibly vocal but also puts money behind solutions to that.
Darren:
It’s really interesting that you bring up purpose because you know, I’m sure you’re aware that there’s a bit of an industry conversation raging. First of all, we had Nike come out with their campaign basically supporting African-American sportspeople, you know, ‘Black lives matter’ and those issues.
But then we recently had Gillette also come out with a statement about toxic masculinity and it’s interesting how the two, when people compare them, are very different. What’s your opinion on those two particular examples?
Jo:
I feel incredibly passionate about the importance of diversity and there’s a lot of research being published that shows companies that recruit truly diverse workforces are more successful both financially and emotionally and improve retention.
Darren:
And sorry, just to clarify, but by diversity, you’re not just meaning gender, you mean race and economic, educational, cultural, every type of diversity.
Jo:
Absolutely everything. And then I think that flows through in the conversations that those companies have with their customers. They’re able to show campaigns like that. They’re able to demonstrate that the world truly is a diverse place and that consumers and customers come in all different shapes and sizes and we need to cater to that and we need to demonstrate that we understand lots of different races and cultures and…
Darren:
Beause there’s actually an anthropological explanation for having a diverse workforce and that is that it actually drives creativity. Because creativity comes from various perspectives and different perspectives looking or focusing on the same issues and problems and providing a multitude of possible solutions.
Jo:
Yes, totally. I’ve been reading a book called, ‘The Loudest Duck’ which a colleague gave to me for Christmas and it kind of focuses on this idea that yes, having some quotas and having goals around diversity is fine but you have to go back to where a lot of our beliefs come from and she talks about this idea of having grandma in the room with you when you have a conversation or you’re in a meeting or grandma is there over your shoulder creating these perceptions and creating these beliefs that you’re not even conscious of a lot of the time.
Darren:
Well, they’re biases.
Jo:
They are biases, yes.
Darren:
That’s your perspective and you’re completely blind to them because from the time you’re born, they’ve been a part of your view of the world.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
And that’s why when you get diverse groups of people in the truest sense you’re then confronted by different perspectives that you’d never seen.
Jo:
That’s right.
Darren:
You then need to build a culture of trust and collaboration that you then respect those and view them for the purpose of challenging your own biases.
Jo:
Absolutely, yeah. So, I think that there’s an outcry from consumers to see more diversity in the way that they interact with brands. I’m a single mother of two children and there tends to be this belief system that I would want more time with my children, I want more flexibility in my work life, I want to work part-time, which for me, is not true.
For a woman sitting next to me in the same situation, it might be true but for me it’s not true. I would actually like more support, I would like someone to do my groceries. I would like someone to clean, I’d like someone to help me with those functional things so I can spend more time with my kids when I’m there, but I also love my job and I want to work full-time.
I enjoy working full-time and I would like to have the choice but I’d also like to have some more support systems around me to help me with that. And if a brand talks to me as if I’m the mother of two children that wants to be part-time and wants to you know, be doing school pick-ups and drop-offs and all that, it’s not going to resonate with me.
It’s not who I am and it’s not what I care about.
Darren:
Well it’s the difference between talking to you as a stereotype and hoping you fit in a box that they’ve put you in and talking to you on the basis of, they actually have some sort of intimate understanding of you and your circumstances and your belief system.
Jo:
Yeah. Exactly. And for brands using all the data and using all the interactions and using everything you know about a person, to then communicate with them more effectively is more important than ever before.
Darren:
Now you’ve brought up the word, data.
Jo:
Data, yeah I know! I avoided it as long as possible.
Darren:
But look, it is important because it’s the way of scaling…
Jo:
Absolutely.
Darren:
You used the example before, the jeweller. The jeweller probably was able to memorise maybe one hundred, one hundred and fifty clients, to carry that in their head so that when they walked in they could identify them, they’d remember things about them. But how do you scale that? And the only way to do that is with data and technology, isn’t it?
Jo:
Absolutely! And it reduces wastage. It reduces this idea, this kind of push messaging. If you talk to me in a way that is relevant, right time, right place and a lot of people talk about that, but honestly, I travel a lot for work and all of my signals, my Wi-Fi, my travel bookings, my location services, all that stuff creates a picture and it’s not difficult to predict when I’m going to travel, where I’m going to stay.
If you put an offer in front of me or you help me with a guide to where I can do yoga in San Francisco, fantastic. I’m booking that in. That is saving me a whole heap of time and energy having to search for it. So right time, right place, but if you put that in front of me three weeks after I’ve gone there, waste of time and sort of annoying.
Darren:
And beyond that sort of practical benefit of saving you time, those little things demonstrate that they truly do know you on a personal level.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Because knowing that you love yoga and knowing that when you travel you like to find a good yoga studio, even getting down to understanding the type of yoga that you like, you know bikram yoga versus…
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
That also proves how much they’ve got to know you as an individual which is what we love about the human experience. When you interact with people, even shopping, that you get that human empathy. When you can get data to the point of being able to deliver that en mass, that’s nirvana, isn’t it?
Jo:
Yeah, absolutely. And you talked before about the challenges that big business have like we’ve seen. We work with a lot of really interesting brands; The Warehouse Group in New Zealand are one that have created a model around the lifetime value of a customer then they know what that is and they know when to send a message and what that’s worth.
McDonalds are another good one who have created their own CRM and have created a McDelivery service as well as an online ordering service so I don’t know if you’ve been into a McDonalds recently but you can actually go in and order, without even having to talk to anybody.
You can sit down with your family, you don’t have to get up at all and it comes to you. They’ve got all of that information about you, they know when you eat, what you order, who you go there with and they’re now using that to actually put more relevant messages in front of you. There’s a great example of a large organisation who have different interactions with different people. I go there for coffee but other people might go there for a family meal so they treat us differently.
Darren:
So it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because both of those examples you’ve used, the first big challenge they had was actually to create an identity for their customer because the traditional business model for both McDonalds and for The Warehouse Groups was that their customers were largely anonymous.
Apart from credit card, if they use credit card they could match credit card details and try and use that but what they have done in both cases is worked out a way of creating a customer identity so that they can then start to capture information against that identity and start to use predictive behavioural modelling to understand what that customer seems to want so they can deliver it before the customer even knows they want it.
Jo:
Absolutely. And then they can also use it for all of those signals where they don’t have an identity for the customer and say, “Actually you’re behaving this way, we’ve got all these identified customers, you fit that kind of profile, let’s put you into that segment”.
Darren:
Which is what Amazon did really well, didn’t they?
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
I remember when I first used Amazon, I was just blown away that within two or three transactions they were starting to nominate things I’d be interested in. This is very early on, you know.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
And you’re going, that’s unbelievable. Like I would never have that experience from a bookstore. People think that Amazon beat books by being cheaper, it wasn’t. It was the customer experience that actually made it better than going into a bookstore and talking to someone that you had to spend like twenty minutes explaining what you’re looking for.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Whereas Amazon was collecting that on every transaction, comparing you to pools of customers to see which profile you fit and then offering you things, and then learning by your reaction to those offers.
Jo:
Yeah. Again a big part of that is the convenience factor, right? That you don’t have to go looking for it, it’s served up to you in a really relevant, contextual way.
Darren:
And an emotional benefit which is the feeling that they know me.
Jo:
Exactly, yeah.
Darren:
So I think there’s the two parts, we need to focus on both the practical convenience and yes, it was cheaper but you compromised that for the time it takes to get it delivered but so much richer is just this sense of hey, instead of having a whole bookshop as soon as I walk in, they go, “Here’s the books you’re interested in, here’s the whole section. Look at these, hey have you”, you know? It was that experience of being known and being acknowledged for being who you are.
Jo:
Yeah, that’s right.
Darren:
So really interesting, totally different category, Telco’s and banks. Now they capture huge amounts of data just by us interacting with them.
My telco company knows what calls I make, what data I use, what I browse. My bank knows all the bills I pay and who and when I pay it and yet they seem to be lagging everyone else. Is it just size or is there something else working here do you think?
Jo:
I think that like businesses in silos that I was talking about earlier, that is a huge problem for the banks and Telco’s. It’s this idea that they treat acquisition and retention quite differently or they traditionally have but they’re bringing it closer together.
We’ve been talking to Telco’s about, how do you identify the behaviours of a pre-paid and a post-paid customer and how do you start to reduce that time from when a customer converts from being a pre-paid to a post-paid? What are the signals and how can you identify and how can you create an offer or some sort of scenario that gets them to convert quicker?
And that involves getting all of those different divisions, brand marketing, acquisition marketing, retention marketing to all work together and CRM and that’s a very new proposition for them. They’ve traditionally treated it quite separately. But we do see them, a lot of them making that transformation. I’ve recently just bought a new house and I….
Darren:
Congratulations!
Jo:
Thank you. And I did not have to go into the bank at all to meet with my lender. Not once. Everything was done digitally but I still had that human contact with him and he was super responsive. I’ve raved about him to anyone I can, anyone who’s attention I can get which I think is pretty rare for someone dealing with a bank.
But again, that convenience factor and then that emotional factor as well of, he knows me, he knows what I need, he knows how I want to operate. He dealt with me a lot outside of business hours and he works in a bank. So it’s that kind of transforming your whole business, the lenders, the digital experience, the website and it’s getting all of that together in one place and understanding how each piece fits together.
Darren:
Which is a big task.
Jo:
Huge task, absolutely. And lots of customers, lots of revenue.
Darren:
So Jo, I’ll ask you. This is your home loan lender.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
I’m wondering how well that translates across to other things because I’m sure they’ve entangled you and I love that term from banks, they entangle their customers. I’m sure there’s credit cards and all sorts, they’ve set up an offset account for you and all sorts of things.
Jo:
Yep.
Darren:
Has all of that gone as smoothly?
Jo:
Yes, it’s been amazing. It’s absolutely…
Darren:
You should give them a plug because that is amazing. I’ve also just borrowed for, bought a new home.
Jo:
Have you?
Darren:
And it’s interesting because in the process, I do all my business banking and everything and I had two customer IDs, unique customer IDs. So as one person, I already had two and in the process, they’ve given me a third. So now I’ve got the problem that when I phone up or I go online, I have to remember which accounts are attached to which customer ID because if I put the wrong one in, even on telephone banking, they go, “Oh, no, sorry we can’t help you”. Because they need to know which, and it’s just a mind, you know, it’s…
Jo:
Yeah, that’s very different to my experience.
Darren:
I’m not going to name them, no.
Jo:
You don’t want to talk about yours. Well mine is HSBC.
Darren:
Okay, HSBC. Let’s give snaps for HSBC for doing a great job.
Jo:
Absolutely.
Darren:
Because this is one of the big four and look even amongst those four, I’ve heard from many people that CommBank has done a fantastic job moving down but then as you say, let’s go across the Telco’s because the telco business knows as much about us as customers as anyone but they really do struggle to get around the difference between you as a personal customer, a business customer, a pre-paid, a post-paid, an internet customer, there still is a lot of these silos that are getting in the way of a view of customer.
Jo:
Yeah. But I think the true change happens when there’s an agreement that the customer comes first and let’s look at what is the customer experience in lots of different scenarios and how can we reduce friction?
Darren:
Look, that’s really refreshing to hear that from someone that works in Ad Tech or Mar Tech which Salesforce is because what you’re really saying is, start with the customer and then the technology will support that.
Jo:
Yes.
Darren:
Whereas many times we’ve heard, “Here’s the technology that will solve all your problems”, and then nothing ever happens because you haven’t done the initial work.
Jo:
Yes. Absolutely. I think we do a lot of consulting sessions with customers to look at state of business, what’s the customer experience? We go into the store or we talk to the customer service agents and we’ll help to diagnose what’s the real business challenge and how can you put customers at the centre and how does technology support it.
And I do think it’s unique and refreshing for technology companies to approach it that way and I think that’s why Salesforce is continuing to be really successful. It’s a different approach.
Darren:
Part of it is your business model, isn’t it?
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Because really the person’s only going to keep supporting the platform while the platform is actually delivering results for them.
Jo:
Totally and Salesforce was born out of this idea that technology in CRM in particular should be accessible and affordable to everyone so we created cloud based CRM and that was kind of our initial success, it was based on creating this very accessible CRM system and off the back of that, we’ve built and acquired a lot of other capabilities and functionality but it’s all pinned to this identity and this idea that you’ve got an identity for a customer, how do you improve the relationship with that customer over time?
Darren:
Now this, this has got me to the point of thinking, I’m wondering if there’s people, marketers listening to us that are much more brand focused.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
And traditionally brand was built through comms and advertising and they’re probably wondering so, they’re getting a lot of pressure to look at customer experience and managing the “customer journey”, I always love the fact that it’s always represented as a line.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
I don’t know about you but my customer journey is more like a squiggle.
Jo:
Yeah, totally!
Darren:
All over the place, but anyway. Customer journeys at the line and they often struggle with what’s the role of that in brand building?
Jo:
Yeah. I think there’s always a place for brand and to your point before, the emotional side. If you’ve invested in a brand, like I’ve revealed my love for HSBC, if I’ve now invested in that brand, seeing that brand, having a relationship with that brand, going to the rugby or doing something where I get to continue my relationship and my experience with that brand, is really a wonderful thing and it’s a very emotional thing.
And we’re human beings, we are emotional. We need that connection. We want to feel like we’ve made a good choice and brand often backs that up. But also, you need brand to create identity. You need brand to help differentiate. You need brand to show you, I mean, Salesforce does branding. I don’t know if you’ve seen bus sides, we’re everywhere right now. The brand is important.
Darren:
What do you think of the fact that brand is actually built through the customer experience more so than any amount of money spent on brand advertising?
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Because your experience of HSBC, I’ve seen all HSBC’s advertising but I’m sure your appreciation or connection with the brand was infinitely more strengthened through your experience with the lender, the banker, than it would be from seeing an ad.
Jo:
Yeah. Well, I think together they’re more powerful. What’s that word, that concept when you’re like, buying a car, a red car and suddenly all you see is that brand of red car, that word.
Darren:
I’m not sure.
Jo:
It’s that sort of thing, I think the two together are more powerful. But yeah, if you’ve had a bad brand experience and you start to see that brand everywhere then that can have a counter effect.
Darren:
But I’m also thinking that every single part of that, of those customer touch points is an opportunity to reinforce the brand.
Jo:
Absolutely.
Darren:
You could spend millions of dollars on advertising but if then the brand experience, the customer experience is totally different to what’s being promised, then they’re working counter to each other.
Jo:
Hence, they need to be…
Darren:
Aligned.
Jo:
Aligned and not in separate groups, separate teams, separate strategies.
Darren:
That gets me back to purpose because one of the things that we saw with Gillette especially is that it’s, in making a stand on purpose you’re going to alienate a certain part of the audience.
Jo:
Of course. And I think if you’re not doing that then you’re not trying hard enough. I think you want people to talk about it, you want to create a conversation. You want to create some emotion, whether that’s positive or negative, I think that is one of the most powerful things about branding, is you can, you can create some emotion, you can create a story and you can create a conversation.
Nike have been doing that so well for so long. I don’t know if you’ve read Shoe Dog but that’s another fantastic book.
Darren:
Yeah.
Jo:
He’s been a disrupter from the very beginning.
Darren:
Well they always sponsored the mavericks of sports, not just the heroes.
Jo:
Yeah, that’s right!
Darren:
They didn’t just pick Pete Sampras who was a great tennis player but they loved John McEnroe. Bjorn Borg was a great tennis player but you know, McEnroe had the Nike attitude.
Jo:
Exactly.
Darren:
You cannot be serious, you know, that was the attitude.
Jo:
Totally.
Darren:
Win. Win at all costs.
Jo:
Yeah. And see, we’re sitting here now still talking about it.
Darren:
Thirty years later.
Jo:
And the power of brand, right?
Darren:
But in alienating a part of the population, you want to make sure that you’re alienating the people that are never going to be your brand advocates. Like Nike did it so well because they alienated sort of almost like the rednecks and consolidated their core audience behind the brand.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
I just wonder if Gillette has in some ways alienated some of their core audience by going toxic, because people have misread, the core audience, men, have misread what toxic masculinity means. It’s not all masculinity but they think that toxic masculinity means that masculinity is toxic.
Jo:
Is toxic, yeah, so true.
Darren:
The danger is, yes, alienate them, but make sure they’re not your audience.
Jo:
Or you can be too clever or too, yeah, divisive. But I like that, I really like and appreciate brands who are willing to just push the boundaries a little and see what happens.
Darren:
The other thing is that you use the example of Salesforce.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Salesforce as a brand and as an organisation is one in the same.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Right, the organisation is the brand and the brand is the organisation.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Nike is the brand and the organisation.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
Gillette is Proctor and Gamble.
Jo:
Yeah.
Darren:
So is Gillette really expressing the purpose of Gillette which is a brand or is it expressing the purpose of Proctor and Gamble?
Jo:
Yeah, and that’s a tough one and I think then again, go back to consumer customer first, who does the customer have the relationship with? They have the relationship with Gillette so the brand is Gillette and the branding is for Gillette and the values are Gillette values, not Proctor and Gamble.
Darren:
Which one of my favourite responses to the Gillette ad, it was a woman that said, “Bravo on picking out toxic masculinity, but why do you charge me more for selling me your razors in pink at a premium? If you really want to support women, why is it that you’re charging me so much more just to make a pink razor?”
Jo:
Exactly.
Darren:
If you’re going to do purpose in brand, you need to make sure that everything in your business is aligned to that purpose.
Jo:
Yes, so go and experience it as the customer. Go and experience what it’s like to interact with the brand as the customer rather than from behind the desk.
Darren:
So are these the type of things that we can look forward to next month at Ad Tech?
Jo:
Yes! Absolutely! It’s going to be a powerful and compelling debate and conversation with some real game changers within the industry.
Darren:
Well I hope you’ve got your target set and you’re able to shoot out the lights. And what was the other part? Illuminate the next room?
Jo:
Yes, yes, exactly. Love it.
Darren:
It is interesting because I think I agree with you that I feel that for a lot of organisations there is a point where we’ve had three or four years of discussion, confusion, but we’re starting to see much more focus and determination to actually make these opportunities pay off.
Jo:
Oh, I think it’s one of the most exciting times. I mean I was around in the early days of digital and that was a super exciting time. There were lots of naysayers, there was lots of people saying it was too hard, it was never going to take off. And now, it feels like we’re going through this other evolution of people saying, “Oh, it’s too hard, it’s expensive”, but you’ve got people doing it and standing up on stages and you know, writing case studies to show how successful they’ve been actually executing and The Warehouse Group example, they’re amazing.
They just said, “We couldn’t get to a point of figuring out exactly what our current lifetime customer value is so we had to draw a line in the sand and go, right, this is it. Let’s base it on here and let’s move forward.” Sometimes you’ve just got to go, “I’m not going to get it all perfectly right, but I’ve got to start somewhere”.
Darren:
Exactly, you can’t wait until you’ve got all the answers but you do have to start at some point.
Jo:
Yeah. So it’s exciting.
Darren:
And test and learn.
Jo:
Yeah, yeah.
Darren:
Exactly. Look, Jo, thanks for making time to sit down and have a chat. I’ll look forward to seeing you on stage moderating this panel at Ad Tech in March.
Jo:
Thanks, Darren. Great to chat with you.
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