Steve Sheppard is the Managing Director ANZ at Interactifs, a professional training and coaching company founded in France more than 30 years ago. He reflects on his 30 years in market research and advertising and how, for a communications profession, we often overlook the important skills of effectively communicating in a business context and how more focus on achieving specific outcomes and communicating with intent would improve the performance of all involved.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing. Today I get a chance to sit down and have a chat with Steve Sheppard who is the managing director at Interactifs ANZ. Interactifs is a professional training and coaching company that started in France. Welcome, Steve.
Steve:
Thank you, Darren, Good to be here.
Darren:
Interactifs, now we have a mutual friend that introduced us, don’t we?
Steve:
We do indeed, Clement Toulemonde
Darren:
He was one of the early people in the company, wasn’t he?
Steve:
Absolutely, the company was started thirty years ago in France by Philippe de Lapoyade, and Philippe brought Clement on probably about fifteen years ago. Clement is now the international director. The business started in France and is now in nine different countries including the UK, Spain, Turkey and Poland.
Darren:
Well does Europe still include the UK? I guess it does until Brexit happens.
Steve:
Absolutely, watch this space.
Darren:
That accent of yours, or is that just a speech impediment?
Steve:
What do you mean mate! My English friends tell me my English accent’s gone and my Australian friends tell me I still sound like a pommie.
Darren:
So what does Interactifs do?
Steve:
Interactifs is a French word and it literally means, for those who interact.
Darren:
Well we are doing that right now.
Steve:
Indeed, but for the company, Interactifs has a deeper meaning – improving the quality of professional relationships. Why I say that, is because the cost to companies, any company, of unproductive relationships is enormous, but it is usually ignored.
It’s usually ignored because it is hard to quantify, or because those in charge, let’s say, are not skilled or equipped to teach their people how to conduct effective meetings and conversations.
Darren:
Isn’t it interesting, you would think the human condition, being a human being; interacting with other people should be an innate skill.
Steve:
It should be an innate skill.
Darren:
Something we learn in preschool or even earlier.
Steve:
Without a doubt, we probably learn it from a very early age. It starts in the womb with the sounds we are picking up and the vibes we are getting. You are right, it is an innate skill, but people are rarely trained in it, they just pick it up as they go through life.
We have found over thirty years, particularly in the professional world, that very few people have a real natural talent for it. However, everybody can be trained and skilled in really making it matter when they talk.
Darren:
Part of the sales training that I’ve had over the years is that when you have a sales meeting, be prepared for the social glue segment which happens at the start, which is the small talk. Looking for common ground and common interest and that should be anywhere between 5 minutes and 15 minutes.
The person that you are selling to will give you certain clues that they’ve done enough of that social interaction. If you have a one-hour meeting, there is potentially 25% of it which is just shooting the breeze.
Steve:
Absolutely, and someone is paying for that time. Is it a good investment in time? Does it build the relationship? Obviously, there will be cases where it does, but all too often we find it is counterproductive.
What’s happening is something that is potentially manipulative, insincere or even duplicitous as the smoothing of the waters or the softening of the environment is being created in that small talk scenario. This is before you reveal the true nature of why you are there and the objective of what you are trying to get from that meeting.
Darren:
The fact that it is often set up as a sales meeting and they would argue, in fact I know, because the sales trainers say this is a most important point because it is where you start to establish commonality. Trust is built on that shared commonality of shared values and shared experience. What do you think of that?
Steve:
It’s a really interesting question. We would say that trust is built much more effectively, more simply and faster if you announce your reason for being there, what you have done to prepare for it and how you feel.
Darren:
Okay, so give it to me in the right order.
Steve:
Part of our training is to teach people how to conduct meetings, i.e. how to prepare for them, as most people don’t. They wander in and state their objective vaguely; ‘I’m going to sell you a car’. But they haven’t prepared for it – they haven’t done their homework about you.
If I was having a half hour sales meeting with you, let’s say I’m selling you that Coca Cola can. My objective, from this meeting might not be to get a sale, but to open your mind to the possibility of doing business in the future together. That’s a valid objective.
Darren:
So, you’ve set an objective.
Steve:
I’ve met you for the first time, I’ve done some preparation, I‘ve learned about your business and that actually your business is much more suitable, for example, to take cans in a vending machine rather than in large 2 litre bottles. Making sense so far?
Darren:
So, you are proving that you have some empathy to my circumstances.
Steve:
Absolutely. The third point I would do in the preparation, is to let you know how I feel about today. Now, my feelings could range from extreme excitement to extreme nervousness.
This could be the fifth time I’ve called you and you’ve reluctantly agreed to see me. You’re sitting there with a bit of an attitude, thinking ‘I hope he makes this five minutes and snappy.’
Or, equally that I’m incredibly excited because I’ve finally got a foot in the door and we are talking for the first time.
Why is that important? If I tell you how I’m feeling, generally, most people will not only empathise, but will start to come forward and listen.
Now, it is important that I have just talked about what my objective is. My objective is that I’ve done some planning for this meeting, and I’ve worked out how I feel. But, to come in and start this conversation, I do it in the reverse order.
First, I tell you how I feel about this meeting today. I will tell you briefly, without dwelling on it, because it could waste a lot of productive time. Then, that I have done some preparation – brought in some information I have learnt about your business. And now, I’m going to state what I am hoping to achieve from this meeting today with you.
One last point, once I have stated that objective, told you how I feel and that I have done some planning, I’m then going to ask you what you think. That’s quality control. If I don’t ask you what you think, how will I ever know how I am being received? What do you think of my plan? Have I bought you closer to me?
Darren:
Steve that is an essential part of communication and one that you see very rarely happening in meetings. People are so busy telling you what they think you need to know that they don’t take the time to actually check back in with the other person. What’s that saying, enough about me, what do you think about me?
Steve:
Absolutely. I reckon it’s spot on. It takes bravery to ask someone, what do you think about what I proposed? What do you think about what we have just discussed? You don’t want to ask this too many times for fear of being vain, but why not ask it once, what do you think of me?
If I was selling to you, I think the key is emotion. Emotion is about trust and empathy or if you find me appealing as a salesperson, so, I would like to know early on. You might be giving me some signs i.e. you might start to yawn and look away or at your phone. That could give me some accurate signs, but it could be misleading – it could just be the nature of your character. How else am I going to, most effectively, find out? What do you think of what I presented to you today, Darren?
Darren:
I think that many people would feel they are making themselves incredibly vulnerable to ask a question that may have potentially a negative response.
Steve:
Definitely.
Darren:
That’s where the bravery comes in.
Steve:
It does indeed. The key to the Interactifs training is teaching people to speak more freely about what they want to produce from those meetings and conversations. Obviously we do the training in the safety of the training room and what I can tell you with great certainty is that almost everybody who does the interactive training, will come out the other side saying; ‘Wow, I’ve actually learnt how to speak more freely’ or ‘I’ve learnt to back myself and ask those questions. E.g. what do you think of me?’
Darren:
On that basis, if I was doing the introduction for this podcast, I’d be going, ‘welcome to managing marketing. Today I’m having a conversation with Steve Sheppard, who is the managing director of Interactifs ANZ.
I’m very excited about this because I know quite a lot about Interactifs through my long friendship with Clement Toulemonde. What I would like to achieve today is a very clear understanding of how this training and this coaching could help marketers and advertisers that we work with become even more effective and successful in the ways they work together.
How does that sound as a way of starting this podcast? And then I would ask, what do you think about that’?
Steve:
I’m going to give you nine out of ten for that, Darren. That was very good.
Darren:
Thank you very much.
Steve:
Very good. I think the important point was the quality control at the end. You stated your objective, told me your state of mind, obviously, you had done some preparation and if you hadn’t, not that important, but you did put in the quality control.
What do I think? My first response, ‘I’m delighted to be here, sounds like we are going to have a great conversation.’
Darren:
One of the exciting things for me when Clement introduced us, was the fact that you have come from a career in market research and advertising into doing and providing this coaching.
Steve:
Yes.
Darren:
Now, I think that is incredibly valuable for the Australian market and potentially wider. Because marketing and advertising would see itself as a communications business, but from your thirty years’ experience and my experience, let’s have a conversation about where we think marketers and advertising could be more effective in the way that they communicate and work with each other.
Steve:
I think that is a fantastic idea, without a doubt. The marketing service sector prides itself on being the great communications industry. However, having spent thirty years in some very high-profile creative agencies it told me fundamentally, that there is a huge amount of time wasted. Wasted in sparring, not getting to the point, being manipulative in terms of getting what you want from people and I wish this was training I’d had earlier on in my career, in the advertising game.
Darren:
Could you imagine just within the agency, if you had meetings where people sat down and actually articulated their intention and an objective at the start of the meeting and interacted with each other on that basis.
Steve:
Absolutely. Yes, I can totally imagine that, which is setting that objective for the meeting. Expressing how you feel. Let’s take the ad agency example – the account manager, who has come back from that important client. He has just presented the work the agency spent three months and a huge amount of money developing and the client has rejected it.
Now, that’s going to be bad news. That’s bad news not only for the creative people, where there is some ego involved, but for the factory which must start producing again. It’s bad news all round.
I’ve seen meetings with creative people in them go down the pan very quickly, at a very early stage. They can just switch off because they are devastated by the news they have received. So, the next x number of minutes can be totally unproductive.
Darren:
I had an accounts manager when I was creative director, walk into my office and go, “great news about the creative…”, and I went, “good”, and I immediately felt positive – “Um, the client loves it, they just want to change the headline and the visual.”
Steve:
It’s a classic, an absolute classic.
Darren:
Sorry, at the time I thought this was poor framing. You have framed it in a positive and then you have just completely demolished everything. And I said, “well what’s left?”, “well they liked the copy”. “Thanks”.
Steve:
I think that is a classic scenario of manipulation and total insincerity there. The client didn’t like those things, if they liked them, they would have bought them. They wouldn’t have rejected them. That account manager has just basically lifted your spirits and crushed them on the rocks. What was the point in that?
Darren:
I have to say I was quite feared, so I probably created that a bit in the way I was in the agency in that they probably thought this was a way of getting past the, what was going to be the blow up that would invariably happen.
Even though you can be disappointed, you can still be given a framework that allows you to understand what you can do with that disappointment.
Steve:
100 %, why don’t we just play this for one second. I liked the way you described your fearful personality when you worked back in advertising. There are plenty of creatives that probably created that persona, not meaning to, they just did.
So, that account manager has come in, a little bit in fear of you, so thinks they can smooth the waters quickly. Wrong. What would have been far better is to say, “Darren, I’ve just got back from the client. I am devastated about the news I’m about to give you and I hope that once you’ve digested it in the way that I did we can move quickly to finding a solution.”
“I loved that work. I truly thought it was great, as you know when I walked out the door. I think it is absolutely on strategy, the client however doesn’t like it, not even because of the strategy. They just don’t like the use of those particular words in the headline, they find them offensive for some reason and what we’ve got to do is find a solution.”
“The good thing out of all of that, because clearly it is bad news and I would expect you to be feeling pretty devastated right now, is I’ve got some clues as to how we might be able to keep the good sense of that headline and here are some suggestions. Can I share them with you?”
Darren:
Yeah, love it. You are honest, you are empathetic, we had a shared disappointment. I’m just wondering if they had just said, “I’m feeling a bit intimidated” because it was only afterwards that I realised people were so fearful. People don’t come in and say, “I’m really nervous about your reaction”, so whether that would work as well.
Steve:
Wouldn’t it be wonderful for you as a human being and for them if they were brave enough to say, “look I am feeling lousy about being here today because I know you are about to bite my head off with the news I’ve given you.”
Darren:
“I was the one that drew the short straw in account management that had to come down and give you the feedback.”
Steve:
“My lousy account rep has gone to lunch.”
Darren:
So you said you had another example there.
Steve:
Now, I would like to talk about something completely different. I am going to use you as an example here, Darren. I talked about meetings being production processes – at the end of the day, any meeting or conversation in business is there to produce something.
If it is me coming to you, I want you to do or to think something or I want us to produce something together. Would that be reasonable?
Darren:
Yes.
Steve:
So, for example, I’ve come to see you to let you go from your job.
Darren:
Okay. I’ve had to do this to people.
Steve:
I have too, and it is never a great experience. Now, fundamentally, at Interactifs we believe, you must have an objective for a meeting. Not an objective for something to happen in 6 months’ time, but what do I want to get out of today, with you? What do I want to negotiate with you?
The more freedom I give you in terms of your choices in the way you respond to me, the greater the likelihood that you and I will come to a mutual agreement. So, is my objective to tell you, you have lost your job? No, because that is not negotiable.
You have lost your job, I’m the managing director of this company, your job no longer exists. What is negotiable is how you receive and act on this information, which is probably going to be devastating to you.
The reason I want to use this, is that it really does exemplify the notion of preparing for, listening differently, asking questions differently, stating differently, what you want to get from the meeting.
Darren:
Really interesting because I have a very old, long term friend who was an international HR director who had terminated hundreds and hundreds of senior executives. His stated objective of any termination meeting was to allow the person to leave the meeting with their dignity and integrity intact.
Steve:
Fantastic.
Darren:
Right. That was his stated objective. Yes to your point, I have to terminate this position, that’s a non-negotiable. What I need to do, because it will be devastating to you personally is make sure that you are given a framework and support that allows you to quickly re-establish your integrity as a human being. I still feel I am a worthwhile human being and I can walk out of this room or walk through the office with dignity. That is the minimum that’s required by the organisation in doing that process.
I have also been made redundant or terminated and it’s amazing how people get it so wrong because they’re so obsessed with their own feelings that they haven’t even acknowledged. To perhaps acknowledge their own feelings would be a big step forward.
Steve:
It would be a massive step forward for the meeting outcome to be that you walk away still feeling positive towards this company and fully understand the decision that’s been made.
Another one we first talked about today (and I’m pleased to say I was 10 minutes early rather than late) is lateness. It is a huge issue in companies, particularly in the white collar business world. It’s a little bit different in other areas and there are all kinds of ways of dealing with it but let’s suppose you are perpetually late.
Finally, my boss has turned up to this meeting and you’ve turned up late again; the meeting has been disrupted. My boss has tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Darren’s behaviour is unacceptable; do something about it”.
Darren, you and I need to meet and talk about this. Now, the inevitable way that most people deal with it, is to walk in there, try to soft soap and pretend all is going well between us and then suddenly the reason for this meeting comes up. And it can be like a slap in the face.
What also happens is—it’s human nature to ask “why?” And if I come to you and say, “why are you late?”
Darren:
There’s always an excuse.
Steve:
There’s always an excuse and the chances are it’s not going to serve my objective, I probably don’t want to know. If I start blaming you and telling you you’re late, I’m probably telling you something you know already. You know you regularly turn up late. So what should my objective in the meeting be?
My objective should be future looking. It must be to get a commitment from you to be on time from now on. That should be the only important thing. Otherwise, we’re going to meander into a swamp on manipulation and justification and areas that are probably not going to serve this meeting or get us to a point of positivity.
Darren:
We were doing a project with a Japanese electronics company and I had several meetings with the marketing team and the CEO. And at the 2nd meeting I’d turned up on time and I signed in at the reception and the CEO, to the minute, walked down and picked me up from reception and took me and sat in the meeting room and about 10 minutes in (we’d been chatting) he says, “I don’t know why but marketing are always late.”
I said to him, “so what are you going to do about it?” And he said, “what can I do? They’ve always been late, and they’ll always be late”. That’s the first. The second is a major bank where the new CEO organised an all-staff meeting (we’re talking thousands of people) and it was after a break, in a big auditorium and it was “we’ll resume at 11 o’clock”. And he stood at the front of the room and he waited and waited (he didn’t say anything) until the very last person sat down, which was 25 minutes after 11.00.
He then made the announcement that it would be company policy at any meeting that the doors would be shut at the appointed time and no further person would be allowed to enter the room. And to prove that the very next day he had a 9am meeting (all these direct reports) and at 9am the doors were closed, and half of his direct reports were left standing outside the meeting room.
Steve:
I salute him for doing it. The fact of the matter is he provided them with prior warning. He did not rip into someone and destroy their ego, which would be very poor management practice. He gave everyone this new piece of news to act on and then he carried it through.
Darren:
Do you think we have too many meetings? I think this is a particular white-collar business, but it seems to be a particular issue for marketing that I have senior marketers who show me their diary where from 8am to 6 o’clock at night there is a succession of meetings.
Steve:
Based on the fact that I’m fortunate enough to have conversations with anyone from marketing directors up to CEOs on a daily basis, asking them how things are going, and how their life and job is – you will inevitably hear them say, “all I seem to do now is go from meeting to meeting”.
So, there must be a problem. But who am I to judge whether we have too many or too few meetings? I think what’s really critical is that we have meetings that are not planned for, that are not well organised in order to produce results from them faster. I think that’s the problem.
I can remember huge amounts of time wasted in advertising agencies. I remember at one point in my career thinking this must be one of the most profligate businesses there is because we spend so much time on extraneous things, and at the end of an hour and a half we haven’t actually moved anywhere.
Darren:
Everyone’s had an opportunity to share their opinions.
Steve:
But we haven’t got anywhere except, for example, the media or creative department has walked off, their heads are slightly more stooped than they were when they first walked into the room and we are waiting to see what happens in a few days’ time.
Darren:
One of my concerns is the idea of being more agile in marketing and I think agility as a philosophy is great, agile process is great, except that in a culture where meetings are the way to coordinate and work together it just generates more meetings.
And unless those meetings (to your point) have a particular intent and a very clear objective and result in actions that need to be done and are agreed, but in many ways isn’t that just the traditional meeting management process? There is an agenda drawn up that is shared with all of the relevant people. The agenda is discussed and at the end of it there will be responsibilities and timelines for people to do what was agreed in the meeting that needed to be done.
Steve:
I’m going to answer your question with a question. How often do you find yourself sitting in large group meetings where only a small number of people consume most of the oxygen and by the end you don’t really know if everybody has bought into the objective set?
Darren:
Well, I’m a little lucky, Steve, because I charge by the hour and I’m a consultant so most of the time if I’m asked to a big group meeting it’s because they want to hear what I have to say or to make a recommendation or whatever.
But I’m being facetious and a little bit of a braggart there but I do know that happens. In fact, pitching; we have a thing called chemistry sessions. Yes, they’re chemistry sessions because you’re getting people into a room where, due to human nature, they will decide within less than a minute whether they like the person and then spend the other 59 minutes collecting all of the evidence they need to support their initial assessment.
We call it a chemistry session but we brief both parties. We say, “agency, you have 20 to 30 minutes to really pitch why you”. It’s a one-hour meeting, we’d recommend you don’t go over 30 minutes because at the end of that it should be to engage the client in asking questions.
Steve:
Without a doubt.
Darren:
Because the next 30 minutes should be an interaction, that’s where they’ll really get an understanding of who you are and whether they can work with you or not. The number of times I’ve had to call time at 60 minutes and all the agency has done is talk about itself.
And even worse, I’ve called time at 60 minutes and only the managing director of the agency has spoken and left the team of potentially 6,7 or 8 people just sitting there as what I call warm props in the room.
Steve:
Absolutely.
Darren:
And these are communications companies. Their responsibility is to be able to communicate or ‘interact’ with their potential client.
Steve:
I think there are a number of things that have sprung to mind as you say that. What were you taught about listening at school?
Darren:
I learnt more about listening in business and my favourite quote is ‘we have 2 ears and 1 mouth so listen twice as long and only speak when you have something to contribute to the conversation’.
Steve:
Have you ever talked to someone and found out if they had a good conversation? Generally speaking, the person telling you they had a good conversation – it is because they talked a lot. Because people want to talk – it’s human nature.
Darren:
Sorry, a chemistry session, a panel largely of women from the client side, one male, an agency team of 3 men –they did nothing but talk to the man. It didn’t matter who asked the question, they responded back to the one man on the other side for about 40 minutes. I then said, perhaps we should take questions—no questions. As I walked them out they were telling me how well that went.
I said, “why do you think that went well?”, “Well, we presented out credentials really well, answered the brief really well”. And I went “guys, it was terrible, you didn’t engage them, you largely insulted most of the people in the room”. They had no idea because they were so absorbed in their own presentation.
Steve:
And telling their story.
Darren:
They didn’t read the room. They saw none of the body language. It was bizarre.
Steve:
I recall one managing director that I served many years ago. The team and I got to the point where we had to gag him because he was so enthused about presenting the company credentials – how many overseas offices we had, how large they were, and how we’d served that client in 15 different countries…
He used to ask at the end “how do you think it went?” Our response; “Alright, but we didn’t learn anything from them because you hogged the entire conversation”. So, I think your chemistry method is perfect.
Take some time to say something because you have to get to know me but I’ll only know if we’ve had a really good meeting if you are then totally engaged with the next 60% of it, firing questions, picking our brains, then I’ll know we’ve probably landed you.
Darren:
We can tell by reading the room, and I think that’s such an important skill, to be aware of everything that’s going on in the room. How quickly the client engages with the agency even when they’re presenting. If you just pause long enough someone has a question and as soon as they ask the question they are emotionally engaged in that interaction.
Steve:
Absolutely. I’m going to go back to some government business we pitched for once.
On the client panel was a lady who had just given birth and decided to bring the baby to the pitches. The issue was quite a sensitive one, so I think they did it deliberately (I found that out quite a long time afterwards).
In the pitch, this lady started to breastfeed her child. We won the pitch, and I was told afterwards it was because in my presentation I decided after she started doing this to move closer to her and talk to her directly and she loved it. She gave us the feedback afterwards that other agencies pitching for it had turned away, ignored her, almost turned their noses up.
I think it was a deliberate strategy on their part and good if they want to do that.
Darren:
That was quite insightful as a way of testing. A lot of marketers will say, “how can we tell if someone’s collaborative?” Because every agency will say that they’re collaborative but it’s very easy to find out if someone is more likely to collaborate or not. And that is see and observe if they listen and then respond to what has been said to them, to clarify what they’ve heard and once it’s clarified then to respond.
Steve:
The words people use and the order in which they say them is not mere coincidence. If anybody listens carefully to what is said and the order it is said in and responds to that, not only are you showing you’re a very respectful listener, but the chances are, you are dealing with the points that are most important to that person.
Darren:
So, Steve, if there is an agency or marketing team listening to this podcast, what would they get out of engaging with Interactifs in doing either the training or the coaching?
Steve:
Our training programme involves a 2-day seminar/workshop for up to 8 people, followed by 2 telephone coaching sessions for each participant and then a further 2 days in the training room. There is no PowerPoint, we do not present charts. As the trainer, I am highly engaged in the action. 80% of the training is based on role-plays of participants’ real-life business situations and videoed, getting people to see themselves, and then re-sketch so that they start to learn to use the tools.
We fundamentally teach them to do 2 things:
1) Prepare for conversations in a way they have never done before
2) Then in the conversation we train them to use our toolkit to get to a point of negotiation as effectively and simply as possible.
One of the things we say to people all around the world is – how do you like to be spoken to? We find, almost irrespective of culture, most people will answer the same way.
How do you like to be spoken to, Darren?
Darren:
I like people to speak to me as an equal and show interest in the way I’m engaging with them.
Steve:
Fantastic. In terms of the message they are delivering how do you like them to speak it to you?
Darren:
As an equal.
Steve:
O.K. Do you like them to be direct, concise, precise?
Darren:
Of course, I haven’t got time to waste. I like people to get to the point and that’s an interesting point because we’ll have agencies who want to meet with us and get advice but then you’ll spend most of the time not actually getting to the point.
Steve:
Trying to work out why they’re there and what their objective is. In terms of the manner in which they speak to you so it’s different to the message, how do you like to be spoken to?
Darren:
The manner? As a conversation I guess.
Steve:
Calmly, friendly, polite?
Darren:
I also love enthusiasm, so that people actually feel energised and engaged in having the conversation.
Steve:
Can you tell if people are being honest with you?
Darren:
I think I’ve got reasonable skills but not necessarily. I have been duped. I think we all have but that just makes you more cautious, certainly in taking statements of benefit and things like that, promises, you’ll often take with a grain of salt.
Steve:
I think that’s spot on, Darren. You can tell if someone is being clear, direct, concise, precise. You can tell if they’re being calm, friendly, polite and respectful. It’s more difficult and you need to spend more time in that conversation to get to the point of whether you think they’re being honest or sincere which are more valued judgements.
Darren:
Look, we’ve just run out of time. It’s been a fascinating conversation, Steve, and if people need more information around Interactifs and the offerings, what should they do.
Steve:
They should visit Interactifs.com.au – there they can leave a message and I’d love to talk to them.
Darren:
As a final question. From your experience (30 years in the industry) any particular agency that you think should be phoning you or contacting you straight away because they need your help?
Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley. Find all the episodes here
