Rakhal Ebeli, CEO of Newsmodo shares his thoughts with Darren on new fatherhood, content marketing, brand journalism and the role of brands as content publishers. Specifically he shares examples of where some brands are getting it right and the resources and partnerships they have to deliver the strategy.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing and today I’m joined by CEO of Newsmodo, Rakhal Ebeli.
Rakhal:
G’day Darren, it’s great to be with you. How are you going today?
Darren:
I’m actually pretty tired. We had the Awards last night so I’ve had about 5 hours sleep and I’m feeling a bit, let’s say, not quite with it. But anyway, I really appreciate you making the time because you’re actually a new dad?
Rakhal:
I certainly am and it’s been a fantastic experience. We’re about 5 or 6 weeks in so I’m just learning the ropes. But it’s been so far so good Darren.
Darren:
So you have a better excuse for sleep deprivation than me. Mine’s self-inflicted. Well I guess yours is in some ways.
Rakhal:
It is a little bit and you just learn to put up with it. Although I must say, now that I’m back full time, I’m doing everything I can to try to get those crucial hours that I can in the early hours of the morning in particular. But no, it’s fantastic, I’m loving it.
A journalism and content marketing hybrid
Darren:
That’s great. But that’s not why we’re here is it Rakhal? Because one of the things that I want to talk to you about is content and you’re obviously aware that we have a very big content strategy for Trinity P3 and we’ve talked about that previously, but Newsmodo is a business that really does understand content, isn’t it?
Rakhal:
Look, we’ve had an interesting journey to get to where we are now within the content marketing landscape. My background is in journalism so we actually founded the Newsmodo network with very much an editorial lens and initially it was a network of freelancers who could be engaged to create compelling editorial content or stories for traditional or legacy media clients.
So in essence, we were exclusively a news agency. It wasn’t until around 2013 when we started getting some inbound enquiries from organisations and businesses who were indeed looking for the services of journalists, that we had that “aha” moment that the craft of journalism or editorial content creation could be applied so well to brand storytelling.
Darren:
And so that’s a different journey into the space of content marketing because I know quite a lot of the other companies have come from custom publishing where they would publish magazines for brands. You’ve actually come and built this business around, what I’d call the pure craft of journalism, haven’t you?
Rakhal:
Yeah, and we still do work very closely with those legacy media publishers both here in Australia and abroad. So we have an editorial desk just like any newsroom and we have a process and systems in place just like other newsrooms that we work with.
So whilst we still are in the content marketing space, we almost have a hybrid business model where we’re still actually operating like a newsroom so it does give those clients in the branded content space that we work with an advantage in that they have that network of freelancers and also the capability to become not just an empowered publisher of content but quite responsive in the way that we can work with them as well.
Darren:
I think it actually Rakhal, gives you guys an advantage as well because it keeps the team pure to the idea of writing content that is of interest and engaging to an audience, doesn’t it?
Because a great journalist has the ability to write a story in a way that engages the reader.
Rakhal:
Yeah, and what we find is that we work with a number of different clients across different verticals and because we’ve now identified the skill sets of our journalists across all networks and across all areas of expertise, we can draw from the best, the cream of the crop, in all different categories of interest.
So if we’re working with a finance client, we can really tap into that expertise to get up to date knowledge on industry trends and facts and figures, but more importantly as you said, the craft of journalism is all about investigation, unearthing the simple stories within often complex matters, and identifying who the audience is and being able to convey that information in a way that that audience can actually digest it.
And I think all too often, we try and overcomplicate storytelling to a point where it becomes almost too much information or information overload. And certainly that’s the case with so much content out there, our role is really to try and be laser like with our focus on what quality content is and find the best people in that skill set to produce it.
Darren:
One of the things that really frustrates me in my role; trying to match major advertisers with the right suppliers and the right business partners, is that everyone today tells me that they do content. And in actual fact, most of the agencies are not doing content in my mind, they are doing advertising.
The art of storytelling and providing value
Rakhal:
Right.
Darren:
It could be short or long form advertising, but they do advertising. Do you have some way of distinguishing in your mind what is content or branded what did you call it?
Rakhal:
Branded storytelling.
Darren:
Branded storytelling. I mean everyone does story telling as well, there’s another one. Everyone’s a story teller but in actual fact, there is a big difference, isn’t there between the two?
Rakhal:
Look, I think everyone knows that there’s for instance native advertising and there’s certain limitations to the amount of product placement that good platforms that produce native content will allow.
So from our perspective, we understand the commercial imperatives of all of our clients in the branded space, however, we encourage our clients to look at their content creation or a hybrid content creation model with us from a perspective of what’s going to add value to the audience, what’s going to put the brand in a position of authority and provide information that will keep that audience coming back?
And often that means by providing insights and industry information, tips and tools that will advantage that audience through the content that we deliver. So our role is really to tap into that network of journalists and ask them for the feedback.
So often when we receive a brief through Newsmodo, we don’t sit internally and put ideas up on a whiteboard. We actually go to our network and find the people who know more about each topic than we do.
Darren:
So specialists in each topic are the ones that have the input into the way of presenting that topic?
Rakhal:
That’s right. So vertical by vertical, client by client, we’ll bring in a different pool of journalists or content creators into our ideation process and by doing that, we actually start to unearth great stories not only about the industry more broadly, but often also about the company or the client that we’re working for.
And an example of that was with Levis; we were working on their fashion blog and they asked us to just come up with great stories about our product and we were able to put that out to our global network of freelancers and you can imagine with 15,000 journalists all the amazing photo essays and different stories that we got.
Some were of truckers in Texas wearing the same pair of Levis for the last 15 years with great images of them on the tractor or the truck and things like that and the client was all of a sudden like, “Wow, these stories exist about our own brand that we didn’t know about”.
So, you know, when you ask about what makes great content, I think great content to us is something that people actually want to absorb and they come back to proactively. It involves their day to day life and they don’t necessarily need to tap in proactively online, they can share it or they can be part of what we would call the “loyalty loop” with the client.
So they’re actually engaging and thinking about it from the heart, not just from the hand by clicking on it.
Darren:
That’s an important distinction from my perspective because it is the difference between outbound marketing and inbound marketing. With outbound, I was a copywriter for 15 years and you were writing stories or messages or advertising or whatever, knowing that it was going to be put into a media that was deliberately disruptive.
Whereas now when I’m writing our own content along with the rest of the consultants, we know we’re placing it onto our blog or website and that it’s going to have to be the sort of content that people want to come and read.
I think there’s a real difference between the two. When you already assume that you’re going to get disruption, then part of the job’s done, isn’t it? Whereas if you’re writing something that as you say, people are going to want to come and engage in, that’s a totally different process.
Brands as publishers
Rakhal:
Yeah, and it puts the brand as a publisher in a much better position, particularly when you’re talking about the respect of the particular brand or publisher because you’re not throwing or forcing branded content down people’s throats.
A great example of a brand publisher that we work with is ANZ Blue Notes and I know they get referred to a lot in our industry but rightfully so. They’re an award-winning publication, their numbers speak for themselves.
We get charged with the opportunity to work with their Managing Editor, Andrew Cornell, to deliver content from across APAC and in that instance, what we do is we’ve got all these great journalists, most of them expat Australian journalists living in different areas across Asia, and they have a standing brief to unearth great stories about Fintec Technology on its own.
Just changes to society in wherever their region is or part of the APAC region, and we get these amazing pictures that we put across to Andrew for consideration. He commissions them monthly.
My point being that as a publication, ANZ Blue Notes never ask us to unearth stories or to promote their brand or to promote ANZ or ANZ products, but by the way that they publish these compelling stories and the nature of the topics of those stories, they’re drawing in that audience already and they’re building I guess what we would call that brand identity.
The audience is starting to build a relationship with that publication to the point where they’re now growing such a big audience that they’re really competing with Legacy Media publishers, particularly in the finance space, it’s incredible.
Darren:
They’ve got an advantage in a way because you know, when you read a finance journal/magazine, there’s so few of them these days. One of the things that concerns me is that journalists working in a journalistic news environment seem to be so obsessed with the news of the day, the 24-hour news cycle.
Whereas what I’ve noticed is that if you get this right like you say with ANZ Blue Notes, you’re able to explore issues that are not necessarily on the 24-hour news cycle, they’re not news, but they are of interest because you can go beyond what’s happening today, what’s the story that’s breaking, to be able to explore some of those other areas. I think it’s an advantage, what do you think?
From ‘churn and burn’ to long form content
Rakhal:
Well, what branded content does do from our experience is it gives the publisher or the company, the brand, the opportunity to provide long form content to its audience. To do features, to put enough time into a story that will actually let the story really breathe and often that’s not a luxury that the traditional Legacy Media publishers can afford these days.
They are on that daily news cycle on that churn and burn kind of news cycle. So we love it when we get that opportunity to work with brands on feature stories which we do quite regularly now. To actually put together a piece of content that is going to effectively last online not only from a readership perspective, but in terms of its relevance within the timeframe that it’s been viewed.
ANZ have done some great pieces on for instance, metropolises if that’s a word, or metropoli, the metropolises of Asia. What certain mega cities would look like if they were to start to expand and almost join up and you can look at this over on their site. It is a really beautiful user journey where you can click through and there’s more than just the words and images, there’s animation and there’s an actual experience with that content.
Darren:
I’m starting to think here that a lot of this content directly competes with the content that the publishers are trying to charge people for?
Rakhal:
As in the Legacy publishers?
Darren:
Yeah, the Legacy publishers, aren’t they?
Rakhal:
Yeah, look, I was on a panel only a couple of weeks back with the New News Group from Melbourne University School of Advancing Journalism and we’d had an interesting debate about the differences between branded content and editorial content.
There was a news editor from The Guardian on that panel who welcomed the inclusion of branded content because it can only make the industry a better industry in terms of there being more opportunities for freelance journalists and more competition between publishers to win audience attention.
So there’s definitely now a really relevant competition between brand publishers and traditional editorial publishers.
Darren:
That competition is really important because I’ve had a number of marketers going, and probably because of industry fatigue, “oh there’s just too much content”. I don’t believe there could ever be too much content, there’s always space for good content, isn’t there?
Rakhal:
Yeah. We find that long form content is what delivers the better results from our perspective. We do majoritively what we would call editorial style content so we don’t see ourselves as an agency that produces bucket loads of social content that goes out on a daily basis.
Darren:
Like the 2 or 300 words that to me feel like fairy floss.
Rakhal:
Yeah. We try and put an editorial lens across the work that we deliver so we find that that’s an article of at least 800 to 1500/2000 words.
Darren:
So that’s a long form for you, 800 plus words?
Rakhal:
I would say 6-800 is a standard article, 1-2000 words is generally a longer form, and then when we start talking about anything over 2000 words we would start looking at a white paper realistically, yeah.
Darren:
It’s interesting that you make that observation because we’ve found exactly the same thing in our own case. Quite a lot of people when they come to contribute will write these 4-600 word articles and they talk about snackable, but I say it’s fairy floss.
You might snack on it but it leaves you totally dissatisfied almost immediately. We’ve found that about 1200 words to 2000 gets a huge amount of people and they sit there reading it, but also it has a much higher level of engagement. They’re more likely to share it socially and more likely to comment on it.
When I say that to possible contributors, they go, “Oh, so it’s about the word count?” And I go, “No, the word count actually forces you as a writer to go beyond the obvious”. I can pretty much bash out 500 words or 600 words on something and just skim the surface, but to write 1200 words or more of compelling content on a topic, I have to go beyond the surface, don’t you?
You’ve got to dig deeper
Rakhal:
Yeah, that’s true. When I was working in television, as I said, my background is in journalism and I worked for a commercial television network for 10 years and there was a formula to writing television news stories and by the time you put in your 8 second grabs, you really only had 4 or 5 lines to work with and when you have only 4 or 5 lines, as you say, can only skim the surface.
You have to make sure of every word in that instance, the craft is putting in power to every word because you only have so little to play with. But when you’re writing long form or editorial content, we find that you really do need to be able to dig into the topic a little bit deeper to get that engagement.
Then obviously for share-ability and to make people feel they connect with the content to make it something that they want to share. That’s really important because the reasons that we share articles or things on social media is because we almost resonate with it to the point that we all support it or we…
Darren:
It’s a reflection of yourself.
Rakhal:
It is a reflection of yourself. So you want to make sure that you’re providing something that people can either absolutely detest – hopefully not – or see it as something that adds value to their life to the point that they’re compelled to show their world around them that they want to share that material.
Darren:
Now, your Newsmodo is a business that offers the creation of content for publishers, major brands, brand publishers, and the like. There is a stream of thought that in content marketing, this should be the voice of the brand, so it should be created perhaps within the organisation rather than being outsourced ?
And in our own case we do that, we source from our existing consultants because they’re the ones with the experience and the knowledge of what we do.
But I can see in this conversation that there’s opportunities where you’re talking about very broad topics and especially consumer focused topics, that there’s benefits in getting an external viewpoint from experts in that field.
The benefits of external content production
Rakhal:
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about this because I’ve contributed a post for your blog with the article on hybrid content creation, and we really see that as a big big opportunity for brands in the future.
To not only nail their internal comms and their important campaign based marketing communications, but also to be on top of the more broader issues within their industry. Looking at their industry through a third party lens or through an investigative lens. To position themselves ultimately as an industry leader, a thought leader.
I agree that nobody really knows your brand better than you so there are a number of topics and a number of issues which really should be delicately created or the content should be built around the internal knowledge. And particularly if you’re the spearhead of the business, you want to be positioning yourself as knowing and also writing from the heart.
When it comes to more broad, industry based issues, we find that that’s when we can start working with the client to overlap or layover, whether it be day to day news based content or evergreen content that we can then use to either support or work in conjunction with the content that a brand might be creating internally.
Most of our clients are working in that way. We would be foolish to think that we were the only content supplier for a lot of our clients, and I think most agencies would probably say the same thing. They’re not always working exclusively with their clients on 100% of their content output.
Darren:
I think one of the huge advantages that you have at Newsmodo is the breadth and depth of the voices, because while I understand the importance of having a brand voice, as you say, you have a huge choir that you can draw from to actually add to, hopefully in harmony, maybe in discord if that’s appropriate.
Rakhal:
Well look, ultimately the brand has the final say on publishing the material so these are only suggestions. Usually what we do is we do that ideation process on a monthly cycle so we’re keeping ahead of the editorial schedule. The client is the one that can tick off the ideas that they feel best support their own content objectives and the stories they want to publish.
But what it does do is that it does lay over another level of sophistication to their output because they really are able to tap into the expertise of that network and we do it all the time. Particularly in the finance industry and industries like innovation and tech where there’s so much going on and no matter how wonderful your team is – although maybe yours is an exception of course Darren – it’s just impossible to know everything.
If you’re pretending that you do, you’re probably missing out on some great stories. So most of our clients see that as the greatest leverage of being able to work with us, is to engage that network so that they’re not putting up the whiteboard every month and put up different stories.
Darren:
That’s one of the things that we’ve had with marketers. They’ve started down a content strategy path only to hit a rock which is they cannot produce enough quality content within their own resources to do it.
Then unfortunately, they’ll usually turn to either their PR agency or their advertising agency to help them produce content and suddenly there’s quite expensive content that’s not getting any sort of engagement because it’s more branded than it is entertainment or informative or you know, useful.
Rakhal:
It takes a bit of guts to write material that isn’t branded. I think that’s a bit of a leap for a lot of companies, particularly these days where it’s not cheap to create quality content. On every piece of content, you have to trust that by allowing it to breathe and allowing it to be positioned as almost transparent content, that it will still add value to your overall brand positioning.
But certainly when we’re talking about agencies, I know that a lot of the agencies that are starting to get into more content creation are looking for outsourced opportunities or collaboration because they just don’t have 1 or 2 copywriters that can work across 10 different industries.
So that really is something we’re being able to do.
Darren:
Sorry, you’ve just reminded me how when I was a copywriter I became an instant expert on whatever I was working on and the fact is that you’re not. It’s impossible.
You’d read, you’d borrow, you’d steal bits from everywhere and then re-massage it but it really isn’t producing quality content, because you’re just rehashing someone else’s thoughts and ideas and work anyway.
Rakhal:
Yeah, and most marketers these days don’t even have time to scratch themselves, let alone to be researching and writing articles on a daily basis.
Darren:
They don’t have time to turn up to a meeting on time, that’s how little time they have. Look, I’ve got a feeling that in this conversation we’ve mainly been talking about the written content.
Rakhal:
Yes.
Mediums may change but storytelling and the journalistic discipline matter most
Darren:
But clearly there are some big trends, we hear about video being so much more engaging and thank you for the opportunity to do the podcast, and we’re doing a podcast now.
Is there an opportunity with matching message or content to channel? Or are there particular channels that you see are becoming more popular because they’re being seen as more effective or engaging?
Rakhal:
I would love to say that video is taking off as much as I really want it to. My background’s in television.
Darren:
And you have a face for television, we should be doing a video and not a podcast!
Rakhal:
Although, after the recent birth of our newborn I’m looking more and more tired.
Darren:
Maybe some cucumber under the eyes and you’ll look better.
Rakhal:
I might borrow yours mate. But yeah, video is really becoming something that for instance, we’re upskilling in. We’ve just hired a new Video Manager so he’ll literally be our Project Manager and Business Development Manager for us on the video side of things.
He comes from a TV network background which is really exciting because our clients are really really screaming out for more video and it’s something that is, once you start doing it, you realise it’s not that difficult to do and it doesn’t have to be a big production.
It doesn’t have to be in a studio and story boarded to the nth degree. You can turn around great video material because you’ve got a compelling story, as simply as a written article.
Darren:
It’s about storytelling and the journalistic discipline of being able to unearth the story and bringing it to life.
Rakhal:
That’s it. The real challenge with any video based story is the identifying of the story before you go out and shoot it. Not coming back with the wrong angle or the wrong take on the story.
So that’s something that we work with our freelancers across Australia and overseas on. We’ve done a video project recently which was a great example of how video content can be done without it costing an arm and a leg where we used 6 videographers in 6 remote locations to create a series of content for one of our clients and then we brought it all back in-house and pulled it together.
But the client was amazed that we were able to produce 6 videos that all had the same look and feel without having to put bums on seats in an aircraft.
Darren:
See, I don’t mind the fact that people said, “Oh video”, especially online video will be the death of the written word. I actually like the fact that people have rediscovered reading and they will read as much or as little as they like.
This idea that video needs to be short, 3 minutes is the ideal. People create all these rules around content and yet we will sit there and watch a 2-hour feature film. Why do we do that? Because it’s engaging and interesting and escapism and good story telling.
I’m not sure why we create this constraint for the audience because we posted a 27,000-word white paper, we did it in 8 posts and got a huge amount of engagement because we serialised it. But people read 27,000 words! If you said you were going to write a 27,000-word post, people would say, “No one will ever read it!”
Rakhal:
“You’re crazy”.
Darren:
You make a 20-minute video, if it’s terrible, no one will watch it.
Make your point then flesh it out
Rakhal:
I think it does depend on your audience. I think that there is some relevance to short attention spans of generation X and beyond. There’s definitely a trend towards mobile and certainly for the younger generation, that is where content is consumed.
Much much more content is now being consumed on social media streams, your Facebook, Twitter and so on, than it was even a year or 5 years ago. That means that the fight for that attention is really really competitive.
Legacy publishers aren’t reaching those audiences like they were so they are using things like Facebook to try and infiltrate that market. It means that people will switch off after a certain amount of time, but there’s a time and a place for long form video as well.
Darren:
Or do they switch off when they’re satisfied? Because that’s the thing, and I remember a journalist, a news editor in fact, Peter Blundon said to me, “We might write a 500-word article, we might write an 800-word article. But we structure it in a way that they’ll get most of the information up the front and then the next paragraph will be elaborating the first major point and then we’ll restate in the second one”.
Rakhal:
It’s fleshed out.
Darren:
Yeah, it’s fleshed out as you go down because we know that only someone incredibly engaged will read the whole thing. But most people will start with the headline and read as much as it takes to get what they want out of it and then move on.
I thought, “Well that’s an incredibly customer-centric view of the world. Rather than feeling like, just because I created this piece of content, everyone must wait ‘til the end to get the big ta-da at the end of it”, you know?
Rakhal:
Well that was the golden rule in television at least from my learnings as you always put the hook in the first line and the rest comes off, that’s why they call it the hook.
So it is the same with video that you’re creating, you definitely don’t want to save your best shots or your best grabs or your most important points from anywhere other than at the top of the piece of content.
I’m sure a lot of content video doesn’t get necessarily seen all the way through and people still get that satisfaction from it. Because of the nature of our experience and what we find works well, we create most of our videos around like a news package, 1 minute 30, to 2 minutes and then we’ll even create a snippet for social media which generally is only about 15 seconds, a little rush kind of movie.
Darren:
Advertising actually works the other way. Advertising is often structured like comedy.
Rakhal:
Where you leave the punchline.
Darren:
Ta-da, here’s the punchline at the end.
Rakhal:
It’s interesting isn’t it?
Darren:
So just that difference in discipline is hugely insightful into the fact that a journalistic approach is to get the main point upfront, whereas an advertising approach is somehow to lure you in and then hopefully you’re there at the end to capture it.
Rakhal:
The gag at the end.
Darren:
Yeah, the gag at the end, to make it memorable.
Rakhal:
Yeah, and look, both work really well when you do it the right way.
Darren:
When you do it well. Unfortunately, only a small number of people get it really right.
Rakhal:
Yeah, but I think because it’s become so competitive now as you say, the good stuff does stand out and I think we’re very fortunate in Australia now to be working in a time where quality is really being brought to the fore.
The competition for audience across all verticals and different platforms is really requiring agencies and brands to be a little bit more thoughtful about the way they go about their content distribution and creation.
What’s the future of branded content marketing?
Darren:
Well look, what I want to do now, because we need to sort of finish this up soon, I’m going to put you on the spot. I’m getting my crystal ball out here, here you go.
Rakhal:
Wow, that’s a big ball Darren.
Darren:
I want you to look into that crystal ball and tell me what do you see as the future trends or the future of content marketing?
Rakhal:
I love the way that brands are becoming publishers of content. You only need to look at, and I know this gets brought up a lot, but Red Bull is an example of a great brand that is now making more from their publishing side of the business than they are from their energy drinks. This is a trend that we really love to see.
For instance, I was on a flight recently and watching some vice style documentaries and you see that story telling is woven through this content in a way that again, it’s not necessarily the production costs, it’s the quality of the story that’s really engaging the audience.
I’ve got a godson, he’s 16 now, and he’s getting into his own content creation. He’s building his own stories, he’s a magician and he goes out and he starts shooting social media experiments where he does different tricks with people on the street and you know, he’s building his own brand effectively over a period of content creation.
Telling a story, telling a story about himself and his skills and how he engages with people. Brands are doing this really delicately now and thinking about the way that they’re bringing audiences into their community rather than pushing themselves into the audience’s space.
So I think in the future that will be more prevalent, where brands will start to set up their own publications, their own publishing mechanisms. Short Press, the Optus publication that Ooh! Media are putting together is a great example. Qantas’ AWOL where they’re really delivering brilliant story telling through a publication.
Darren:
And I’ve got a wry smile here because it sounds like this is new but in fact, I think it’s John Deer who’ve produced a magazine.
Rakhal:
Correct.
Darren:
For over 100 years, that’s basically branded content, isn’t it?
Rakhal:
And soap operas are called soap operas because they were sponsored by soap companies and it’s been going on since well before you and I.
Darren:
But technology is allowing more people to do it, more brands to be able to embrace it than ever before.
Rakhal:
Yeah I think brands are finding new ways to build communities and that’s really exciting from our perspective, but also from an audience perspective because they’re learning that it’s not all about sticking banner ads and advertising in people’s faces.
It’s about building a rapport with particularly younger audiences who are so hard to get the attention of now and there’s so many things they’re bombarded with. They’ll only play in the spaces that they really want to represent.
You know, you talk about the shareability of content; young people in particular are very very staunch about what they share and the reasons why, so for brands to get into that space, they’ve got to be connecting with the heart, not the hand.
Darren:
And rewarding them for giving up their time to engage with you as well.
Rakhal:
Yeah, and there’s ways that they do that; immersive technology I think is going to be amazing. When we talk about video and you start thinking about virtual reality as the next thing coming down the pipeline and being able to immerse yourself in an experience.
I know Taylor Swift did a brilliant project I think it was with MasterCard or Amex recently where you could actually get inside the video clip and look around and you know, look at what’s on the shelves and read letters, you know, it’s amazing.
Darren:
So watch this space.
Rakhal:
Look, it’s really exciting. It’s a brilliant time for people in marketing and it’s a great time for journalists now because opportunities are opening up where they weren’t necessarily 5 years ago.
Darren:
That’s great. Rakhal, thank you, thanks for giving up your time and coming and having a chat about it because I think it’s really exciting and the stuff that you guys are doing at Newsmodo is a great opportunity for marketers.
Rakhal:
Thanks for having me Darren, it’s been a real pleasure.
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