Caleb Bush is the Managing Director Australia and New Zealand of Project Worldwide and discusses how with the rise of social media, consumers are increasingly making and sharing information on brands based on their experiences rather than the things the brands communicate with them. That to build and grow brands, marketers need to ensure they are creating and managing brand experiences.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing and today I’ve got an opportunity to sit down with Caleb Bush, Managing Director of Australia New Zealand Project Worldwide. Welcome Caleb.
Caleb:
Thanks very much, good to be here.
Darren:
Just describe Project Worldwide for people that don’t know what that actually means.
Caleb:
To describe Project Worldwide I need to talk about George P Johnson. He was a real man who grew up on the great lakes of Michigan in Detroit. His family had a sail making and flag making company and just post the time of Henry Ford creating the model T in Detroit, birthplace of automotive, George’s business started taking sail making, flag making equipment and creating some of the world’s first auto marketing assets to help the early pioneers of the automotive industry showcase their wares.
So, a hundred years on now, Project Worldwide was created in 2010 by the grandsons of George P Johnson, still a privately owned business. George P Johnson was an event experiential marketing company and they saw that to have cut through impact with the clients they were working with, they needed to be able to deliver services in other marketing disciplines.
Darren:
So do they still make sails?
Caleb:
They don’t make sails but they did produce the world’s largest flag a few years ago for the American government which is a bit of a random fact.
Darren:
Wow.
Caleb:
So Project was created in 2010, it has about 18 agencies globally, under the Project Worldwide banner. Those agencies are digital agencies, social agencies, PR agencies, and advertising agencies and so George P Johnson is still one of those, as the founding agency of the Project Worldwide group.
My job here in Australia is to manage the agencies within that network, it’s exciting.
Darren:
Okay so as Managing Director of Project Worldwide in this region you oversee the various agencies within that.
Caleb:
So there’s Benefex group, which is an interactive content company based here in Sydney. They do amazing projections for projects like Vivid and have worked on the Olympic Games and they build a lot of interactive corporate content.
You’ve got Dig & Fish in Melbourne; they are a pretty modern hybrid agency. They work around organising ideas that can be amplified, activated or advertised, so they have the ability of a multidisciplinary agency.
Then you have George P Johnson which is in Sydney, Melbourne, Auckland and Perth and the newest agency as part of the network is Dark Horse and they are a luxury brand marketing agency based in NZ.
Darren:
It’s interesting isn’t it because we don’t have to go back that far, maybe twenty years when all of this capability skills and expertise was seen as what was called below the line. Somehow there was the above the line which was all the big agencies that we know and then there was below the line which was everyone else. It’s funny how the line doesn’t seem to be so clear anymore, does it?
Caleb:
I would say that the digital transformation that’s happened globally in the last ten years has blurred the lines between B2B, B2C, above the line, below the line and through the line and now we are talking about customer centricity and I think everyone is moving in that direction.
Darren:
We still get marketers and procurement people come to us and go, ’we are looking at our below the line spend or we are looking for a through the line agency’. It’s funny how that language still holds on when it’s not necessarily, either helpful or relevant.
Caleb:
100 percent and I think quite often what we struggle with, even with our own clients, particularly in the IT industry, is that they talk within their own internal jargon, and no one else can understand them and I think marketers fall victim to that all the time.
We were talking about above, through, experiential, experience, events; you could write a book just on buzz words from the marketing industry.
Darren:
In fact I think there is even a big online dictionary of all the buzz terms that people use.
A lot of TLA’s , that’s 3 letter acronyms just thrown in to confuse people.
Going back to above the line, speaking of the mad men era and everyone loves that series, the TV series, but that’s really where people thought of brand building, didn’t they? The above line agency was the place you went to get your brand almost defined and amplified.
Caleb:
Yep, if I think to the mad men TV show, the world was a very constructed place. There was a place for men; there was a place for women. There was a certain type of way you had to act and behave as part of society. I think that rule book has been completely thrown out the window over the last 20 or 30 years.
Now that’s happened, all of a sudden the way that we communicate to each other and the way we interact, particularly with the onset of the iPhone, it’s completely different. So, great film, great era but it’s quite nostalgic I suppose in that sense.
Darren:
But it’s held on, hasn’t it, in the industry because we still see brands today doing the brand work through traditional advertising primarily.
Caleb:
They do.
Darren:
And the industry even celebrates it because when you go to award shows, there are the TV awards and then cinema awards. The broadcast ones are the main ones and then we get the digital; there seems to be an unbelievably long line of digital awards for everything from apps to websites to all sorts of things.
Caleb:
I think you are just now starting to see integrated awards coming into play. So how are you connecting the above the line television commercial which is your mass media outreach platform into your one to one digital communication and through to the in-store experience. I think that the traditional advertising agencies are definitely trying to better understand the below the line space, and we are getting into above the line and below the line.
Darren:
Let’s call them broadcast and non-broadcast cause in a way that’s what we are talking about. Mass media is the traditional brand building tool. In fact, I remember I think it was Harold Mitchell years ago describing advertising as a cannon, the media cannon ; you put as much cash in it as possible and aim it towards the audience and keep firing until you win the sales battle.
Caleb:
And he did very well out of that. I think that is 100% correct. It’s the traditional model of you shoot the cannon and make a big splash and see what sticks. I think the reality today is that brands probably aren’t prepared to spend as much money just to see what sticks.
And they are now starting to use the data that exists within their organisation to probably have a better profile of the customer and try to maybe shoot rather than the cannon, the bull, but that’s probably not politically correct.
Darren:
Be much more targeted.
Caleb:
Exactly.
Darren:
And even that’s got military overtones but be more focused on individuals. One of the promises of digital was that we were going to be able to interact with individuals. We could personalise and have those one on one interactions at scale.
Caleb:
Yes.
Darren:
It hasn’t really happened though because so much of the online advertising is just mass media.
Caleb:
Exactly.
Darren:
Dumped on millions of people at a low cost.
Caleb:
You talk to a media agency and they’ll say programmatic is changing the way that brands talk to customers but really that’s an algorithm that is trying to place data sets of where people might be and to talk to them. It’s not actually an individual conversation.
In the experiential space there are some interesting developments that are happening. They are now starting to use the data to better understand maybe what a customer journey might be inside of that event experience. So for the large B to B companies there will be a registration site that you would register to attend.
You would put your data, your information into it, you’ll tick a bunch of boxes about what you are trying to achieve or do or get out of that event. Then from there, traditionally all of that would be captured and you would just turn up on site and you’d be given a badge and you’d wander round the expo floor and you’d attend a session and you would be none the wiser as to whether you were actually getting the right content or information.
Now those lists have been procured individually for you by those large organisations. So from the very first touch point on arriving at that event through to the content that you are receiving, the sessions that you are sitting in, the third party vendors that might be attending that expo, have all been specifically curated for you.
It’s the very first step in a rapid change of what’s going to happening over the next ten years.
Darren:
Look it makes sense doesn’t it because anyone that’s using social media is actually putting out onto the internet a lot of information about themselves.
Whether they are in a B2B role or as a consumer in B2C they’re actually giving out a lot of signals, even if they are curating they’re giving out signals about what they’re interested in.
Caleb:
I would argue that the lived in platform is probably the B2C Instagram. So you can find out a lot of information about someone by going through their LinkedIn account and seeing what type of articles they are reading, their likes, what are they posting themselves, who are they connected to.
And that’s public information that is accessible to everyone and if you can somehow link that to your strategy of profiling of customer, you can start to build a pretty good picture of who you want to talk to.
Darren:
What I like about that is there’s a quid pro quo which hasn’t happened in many areas which is, you are using the information to enhance my experience, making it more worthwhile.
And I say it hasn’t happened previously because you get spammed by email because they’ve got your email address and maybe your age, or that you are a man or a woman, so immediately they just bombard you with messages.
But in actual fact there is a value transaction here which says if I’m going to give you this information and most people are already, they just don’t realise it, then a responsible brand experience would be to use it, to make them love the brand more wouldn’t it?
Caleb:
Exactly. And so the brand needs to respect that person’s privacy and information but at the same time I don’t think that anyone in the world would argue that if they can have a better experience by the brand understanding a little bit more about them and who they are and curating that journey a little bit, then I think we are all going to be a little bit happier with the interactions that we are having with those broadcasted messages that we are receiving or those one to one interactions that we are having.
So I think it’s a really exciting time to be kind of playing in that space. I think that the brands that will do well, we will see a huge uplift in the way they engage and ultimately they sell their product. I’d argue with anyone that we are all in the sales business in one way shape or form.
That might be selling a shoe or selling a globe IT package to a huge corporate. At the end of the day all of these messages are driving a sale.
Darren:
In any commercial enterprise, revenue and profit is the score card. So in the game of business it’s the way we keep score of who’s doing well and who’s not.
Caleb:
Yes.
Darren:
It doesn’t necessarily mean the only reason we’re doing it is because we are there to make money but it is certainly the score card you have to keep an eye on.
I know in a lot of conversations with not for profits I go, ‘you realise that the term not for profit doesn’t mean you are not allowed to make a profit’. Even for a not for profit, profit keeps the doors open.
Caleb:
Yeah, and I think if you flip that on its head they need to acquire a revenue to do what they are going to do and so they are selling themselves to potential donors or other brands to invest in the goodwill in what they are trying to create in the world.
Darren:
Absolutely.
Caleb:
So I think the sales piece is important to remember. What is the outcome that these companies are trying to achieve, what objectives do they want to measure and then from there you can start to kind of craft that message backwards.
Whereas I think once upon a time, going all the way back to the mad men era, it was just shoot that cannon as loud as you can and hopefully a bunch of stuff is going to stick at the other end.
Darren:
Yes, make your brand ad and then get the reach and frequency that you need and you repeat it enough that somehow the audience will be brainwashed into buying your brand, but that doesn’t happen anymore does it?
Caleb:
Not really. It was an interesting article that I read the other day, I think it was in a Forbes magazine out at the airport. It was saying that global consumerism reached an all-time high in about the mid 1990’s in terms of the amount of products an individual would purchase in a year.
So I would say in the 90’s you might purchase 15 to 20 T shirts in a year, I’m making this up. Now you are probably going to buy 3 to 5 T shirts a year. The amount of money you are spending interestingly is still the same as 15 to 20 T shirts, it’s just that your perception is that you prefer to buy something that might be of a higher quality, it might be more sustainable. So we are still spending the same amount of money, if not more than the 90’s but consumerism, in terms of the number of products we are buying has come down.
Now I don’t know if that’s necessarily true, but an interesting concept.
Darren:
I think that is like saying, the person with the most things when they die, wins. But in actual fact no one wins. You can’t take it with you.
Caleb:
A relative would have to unpack the box for you.
Darren:
Exactly
Caleb:
Although what puts it on its head I suppose is the rise of the middle income space in China.
Darren:
And India.
Caleb:
Emerging global markets where we’ve got some clients who are very focused on those spaces. Even some of the Australian brands are very focused on how to tap into those emerging economies.
We are fortunate being part of a global network that we are able to hopefully provide them with some insight on how to launch your brand in Asia.
I guarantee if you take the mad men approach, shooting a cannon in China where there are billions of people and multiple language barriers and social media platforms that don’t exist in every other part of the world; you could spend a lot of money and not get a lot of cut through.
Darren:
And also traditional broadcast advertising, especially in China because it’s government controlled, doesn’t necessarily get the cut through that a western market like the US or Australia or the like gets.
It’s interesting you should bring up social platforms. Do you remember when there was a brief period of word of mouth agencies? It was about the late 90’s, early 2000 where suddenly word of mouth was becoming the way to actually build brands and build business.
Caleb:
A friend of mine said to me about 12 months ago that she was going to work for a word of mouth agency and I questioned her whether or not it was a good strategy.
Darren:
Oh there’s still a couple around.
Caleb:
I’m not familiar with the concept of word of mouth agencies; I believe that everyone is a participant in some kind of word of mouth experience.
Darren:
I had to laugh. The first time I heard someone saying they were a word of mouth agency, because word of mouth has been happening since time memorial.
People would stand there and go, I’ve just bought this new product X and it’s really good or I just had trouble with product X and it’s not very good. This was the way we actually got information from our friends.
And every time there was a research project it said the most trusted source of information was word of mouth from friends. So then, why don’t we set up an agency that taps into the word of mouth? Trouble is we’ve got social media now and everyone is potentially a media broadcaster.
Caleb:
Yeah.
Darren:
Because we can share every thought, every experience, every insight into every brand and product.
Caleb:
I’ve got young cousins whose dream in life is to be an Instagram celebrity and never have to work a day and be endorsed by products and to be able to essentially be an ambassador for these businesses, which is kind of scary.
That is the shift that we’ve seen and I think that’s where marketers have probably been challenged the most around, how to provide their client with I suppose a more evenly distributed portfolio of how to spend.
I think clients with brands are struggling just as much with that division of spend just as much as agencies are trying to work out how to make sure they are on the front foot of what that new kind of tech or next generation concept in marketing might be.
So there is a role to play for traditional agencies, there’s a role to play for those emerging technologies and at the end of the day I think it’s understanding the actual customer that you are trying to talk to.
Because if you are selling diapers you’re probably going to use social media to talk to the mums but I don’t think the kids themselves are really going to understand much about how to use the phone.
If you are selling insurance products to 65 year olds and retirement plans I probably say social media is not going to be the best platform.
Darren:
In actual fact it is.
Caleb:
There you go.
Darren:
Facebook skews really well for the older demographic.
Caleb:
Yeah, that’s actually true.
Darren:
And we’ve even got social media platforms that actually suit different demographics.
Caleb:
Speaking of Facebook, I don’t think Mark Zuckerberg ever thought that he would become the 65 year-old platform of choice. He was trying to be trendy and cool and have all of his college friends be on the same network.
Darren:
Well that’s where it started. The most successful platforms allow people to connect. They allow them to share and often allow them to be creative in the way that they do that and add any extra dimension beyond just sending a boring old email to someone.
You can put video and stream things and all sorts of stuff. I think that’s really where it’s become so powerful and really changed the balance between the traditional broadcast tools that brands have used in the past against everyone. Everyone gets to actually have their say back at them.
Caleb:
From a brand experience perspective, that’s the power now that sits in, I suppose the brand experience agency’s hand, isn’t it. You can help brands have multiple interactions with their target audiences. It’s not just any more about above the line or the cannon approach to mass marketing through broadcast channels.
I think there are a lot of other ways to communicate your message which is exciting and it’s great for the customer.
Darren:
But quite counter to Professor Byron Sharp’s book, you know; how brands grow, what marketers don’t know, because he talks about going back to mass marketing, to actually do something for everyone. But you are not talking about not targeting lots of people; you’re just talking about targeting them in a way that’s going to engage them better than just a general hit.
Caleb:
Yes, I think whatever the message is that you are putting out there, needs to be constructed in a way that still the most amount of people can see it but the language and tone of whatever that piece of communication is, is actually directly targeted at you. It’s a little confusing.
Darren:
It’s mass reach but targeted to groups or individuals within that mass.
Caleb:
I think as well the cost of traditional broadcast has come down significantly. We are sitting here able to do a podcast in a fairly, I would say, affordable manner.
Darren:
To say the least.
Caleb:
And so the ability to share that message with potentially millions of people is easy. I think that has probably affected some of the traditional agencies more than others because gone are the days where you can roll out a big budget television commercial, apart from maybe the Superbowl, which is where the halo of the global television audience still looks for that 30 second TV ad.
Darren:
It’s still the sharing of that on social media that takes it outside of the US. It’s the sharing online that gives it the mass reach.
Caleb:
I would argue the type of advertisements that’s been created for those global moments are brand led as opposed to product led. They are not going and trying to sell a shoe in the middle of the Superbowl, take Nike for example, they’re talking about how every single person with a body is an athlete.
Darren:
Which is very much on brand.
Caleb:
On brand and that’s shareable; that’s something that everybody can buy into. So that’s been the shift I think from the way those big agencies are crafting those messages through broadcast. It is becoming more brand led I would say.
Darren:
So, Caleb, I just want to take you back to something you mentioned earlier which is the customer journey. There are a lot of marketers that are putting a lot of effort into actually mapping the customer journey.
Caleb:
Yes.
Darren:
The thing that always cracks me up is how linear that is. Its touch point A, touch point B, touch point C. In your personal experience is that how you make purchase decisions?
Caleb:
No.
Darren:
Because it’s not mine either, I’ve never done a linear process.
Caleb:
We are emotional beings and our choices are influenced by the weather, family situation. You’ve also got to remember we are not on a linear curve in terms of our lifetime experience.
A brand might think they understand that customer in that moment in time; well the next day they’ve had more worldly experiences, they are a day older. Their perception of the world is changing as well.
I definitely don’t think that trying to take the linear snapshot of the customer is going to work. I think it might help inform from a marketer’s perspective getting into personas and if you want to start to understand 20-year olds but that data set is actually only as good as the paper it’s written on.
In a month’s time there could be a new global trend that was launched through a social media platform and all of those insights that you thought you had on that customer have completely gone out the window.
Darren:
I see it as trying to simplify what is incredibly complex. The way customers and the way I make decisions is a bit like the randomness of electrons in the universe. You fly around, fly around, and you might be at any particular point in the customer journey at that time, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to go to the next step.
I’ll go off and do other things or randomly I might land and just buy straight away so I’ve condensed the whole customer journey into 3 or 4 minutes; as long as it takes to transact online and have the thing delivered.
Caleb:
That’s an interesting point in that the transaction now I think is pretty cool in terms of the sales process. You have a lot more buying power in, obviously younger generations and there’s a lot of research being done on millennial spending habits. But you also look at I think it’s AfterPay and ZipPay and all of these which essentially are, my grandmother would say, well I had lay-by, but it’s not too different.
Darren:
Accept she couldn’t pick it up until she’d paid it off.
Caleb:
And that’s the difference and this is where society expects things now. Everyone wants it now. They don’t want to wait till tomorrow.
Darren:
Instant gratification.
Caleb:
And social is driving that. So from a marketer’s perspective, how do you deliver instant gratification to the customer, it is an interesting challenge? I think that’s where simplifying the message is becoming critical.
I think any form of marketing that is complicated or needs to be explained in a 10 paged deck is probably not going to get the cut through in terms of the instant gratification that the customer is looking for, which is changing the way we are marketing to people as well.
We are starting at a base level, simplify the message and think about the emotional triggers behind those messages that we are talking about or those brand experiences. That’s kind of another big shift that we are seeing as well.
Darren:
The other thing I want to share with you and get your impression of is Nick Law who is chief creative officer at Publics Group. When he was at RGA as head chief creative, he talked about traditional advertising as being storytelling.
You tell the story, then there is the story acting, the story play, so you play it out and then there’s the actual experience. Actually getting people to come as close as possible to the experience of the brand, right. And he said when people experience a brand it’s infinitely more powerful than just hearing the story about the brand.
Caleb:
Yes.
Darren:
Is that part of the thinking when you are mapping out brand experiences?
Caleb:
100% and what we are trying to do now in terms of curating that brand experience is actually make the customer part of the original storytelling narrative.
So how can you, as an individual actually get a little bit close to that brand in a way that you can engage with it, talk to it, relate with it and it understands your perceptual values? And if you can weave those two narratives together from the traditional storytelling approach to the physical experiencing of the brand, there’s a really powerful connection that can be made.
That’s when you go back to word of mouth, that you’ll go and tell your closest friend that, the watch that I’m wearing or the shoes that I’m running in or the IT platform that finally actually speaks to me as a human is something that I want to talk about. That’s the power of good brand experience.
Darren:
He used an example to demonstrate that. He said go back to cave man times. They’d come back from the hunt and they’d be sitting around the camp fire and talking about how they hunted down the woolly mammoth.
And the second stage was actually getting up and acting it out and showing them how they hunted down the woolly mammoth. But to actually take those people and let them come on the hunt and do it themselves and experience what that’s like for themselves is infinitely more powerful and obviously infinitely more shareable.
Caleb:
There was a Cannes Lion case study that I watched. It was in Brazil and I think I need to credit; I’m going to say it’s Ogilvie but not the point. It was called soccer mums and there was a Brazilian football club that had multiple injuries through physical fights happening at these South American football games. They are pretty intense I would imagine, between the two teams.
Darren:
I thought you were going to say between the mums on the side line
Caleb:
No, no inter big club football games and the insight was that you are less likely to fight in front of your mum. So what they did was, they did a campaign where they took all of the mums of the roughest hooligans from both teams and took them to the game and made them the security.
And this was not just a marketing campaign, it was actually a bit of a societal test whether this is going to work or not and there wasn’t an incident. All these hooligans were actually taken back that there mum was there in front of them.
So 80,000 people that were at that game got to have a completely different brand experience and for those hooligans who traditionally would fly off the rails when their team didn’t score the goal and punch the guy next to him who might be from a different club was a very different experience.
Then from a case study perspective, the way that they told that story, brought it to life through traditional broadcast was a really beautiful story. So there are great ways you can find that live brand experience of going to see your favourite football team play and how that can translate back into a broadcast message that might make you an even bigger fan of the club or in that case than it was.
Darren:
Okay, earlier you touched on the point around that brand experience is at every touch point, at every interaction between the consumer and the brand or the business.
Marketers rarely get to control or influence all those touch points. I can imagine a lot of the work that you guys are doing at Project Worldwide is where marketers can influence that but what about the call centre and what about the retail experience which is often outside a marketers remit?
Many marketing departments are only the comms department. They really only have a few levers to pull. How do you help marketers to start to look at the whole customer experience, the brand experience?
Caleb:
If I gave you the answer to that then I’d be out of a job. But I think there’s two parts to that.
Darren:
Don’t give me the whole answer. Just give me an overview, a taster so that everyone listening will be phoning you to find out what the secret source is; the 11 herbs and spices.
Caleb:
There’s a reason why the traditional consulting companies are so interested in the marketing landscape and I think your question then is a big part of that. Traditionally marketers haven’t been able to influence the brand at all on those individual touch points.
Whereas where they haven’t been able to influence you’ve probably got –you need the ear of the chief technology officer or the CEO and those relationships are held with the PWC’s and the Deloittes. So for those guys if they can own that piece, which they do already, and then have the ear of the marketing team, all of a sudden the messaging that you are trying to drive as an organisation from a marketing perspective can actually infiltrate every single part of that organisation.
So I think that’s one of the reasons why they are so interested in that end to end piece. For us I would say there’s very few moments that CEO’s of global organisations feel more nervous or pressured than the minute before they get on stage to give an address to the public or to their internal staff or to anyone really. It’s a very vulnerable moment before you present something.
Event organisations, large, big or small are in a very powerful position in that they build the trust of the C Suite by building those relationships in those moments. So I personally think that the event organisations or the experiential agencies are in a very powerful place to start to get the year of those senior executives and start to shift the way that they think about how they interact with the customer.
All of the divisions of an organisation will have a kick-off event or an internal meeting. There will be at some point one on one interaction that will probably require a third party agency to come in; that’s where understanding the organisation strategy and getting under the hood of what that business is trying to do.
Project Worldwide doesn’t work with Telstra but we’ve watched that journey over the last few years. They are going through a major transformation at the moment. Whoever their agencies are, I actually don’t know, but I reckon they are quite integrated in the way that they are messaging and their marketing and what their CEO’s vision is. They are all coming together at the moment to try and make sure they do what’s right by the customer, which is a tough job.
Darren:
Yes it’s a tough job because it’s so competitive, it’s constantly changing and there are high expectations and lots of opportunity to get it wrong.
Caleb:
It’s interesting, you’ve got Telco space; in Australia, Optus, Vodafone and Telstra are the majors.
Darren:
And TPG
Caleb:
And there are a couple of others, Boost but they are all affiliates I suppose of one or the other networks, but what a captive market those companies have. To only have really 3-5 choices, I couldn’t name another industry vertical where you’ve got 3 to 5 choices as a customer of where to go. I think there are 18 individual automotive brands in Australia and hundreds of fashion brands that you can choose from.
Darren:
Insurance, financial services.
Caleb:
There might be only the big three banks but there are 50 other banking organisations to choose from.
Darren:
4 supermarket chains. So there are a few monopolies still in Australia because of the size of the market. But you are right it’s still a relatively close shop but highly competitive even amongst those five.
Caleb:
I think if you go back to the brand experience, talking about Aldi, I’ve never really thought about Aldi but they’ve challenged the Coles and Woolworths.
Darren:
With a totally different proposition and experience.
Caleb:
And that brand experience is probably not the premium. It’s a very different experience walking into an Aldi as opposed to walking into a Woolworths in an upmarket suburb.
But at the end of the day the customer wants good value and they are prepared to compromise some things for others. So that’s where a good brand experience is only as good as what the customer actually wants.
Darren:
Caleb, we’ve run out of time. Thank you for coming and having a chat.
Caleb:
My pleasure, hopefully it’s all pretty clear.
Darren:
One last question; who has done the worst brand experience in your experience?
Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley. Find all the episodes here