It’s easy to make a podcast, right? You just need an idea, buy a mic, and off you go, right? … Wrong! Multiple factors make or break a podcast, and if you don’t start in the right place, you’re setting yourself up for failure.
In the second part of this three-part series produced by Ampel, Michelle Lomas, Ampel GM & Head of Strategy, sits down with Darren to discuss the development of a successful branded podcast.
We’ll discuss knowing your listener, the strategic process, being innovative with formats and finding a great host. Michelle will share mistakes to avoid in development, audio trends, and why podcasts are the most exciting storytelling platform since Instagram.
We’ll bring in one of Ampel’s clients to discuss their branded podcast, how they approached the decision to start, the ups and downs of the creative process, their feelings now it’s live, what they’d do differently and what they want to do more of in the future.
Michelle hosts the ‘Flex Your Hustle’ podcast. FYH tells the stories of amazing marketers and founders who did things a little differently! You can hear that podcast here.
Zane McIntyre is the CEO and Co-Founder of affiliate marketing company Commission Factory, the brand behind the Flex Your Hustle podcast. Zane tells Michelle about his experience creating and implementing the Flex Your Hustle podcast with Ampel. If you would like to find out more about Commission Factory, you can visit them here.
Tom Webster is one of the leading podcast industry market researchers with 25 years of experience and 18 years in podcasting. After beginning in radio, Tom has dedicated his career to being an advocate for podcasting and contributed to building the podcast industry, leading hundreds of audience research projects on six continents, including the audio industry’s benchmark Infinite Dial study. In 2022, Tom joined Bryan Barletta at Sounds Profitable to continue to grow the podcast industry with the best in tech and research. Check out the “After These Messages” podcast study here.
You can listen to the podcast here:
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We like to say, when you’re looking at something visually, you can shut your eyes, you can look away. When something’s in your ear and your headphone’s in your ear, you can’t ignore it, and you end up immersing yourself in that conversation.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, CEO of Global Marketing Management Consultancy, TrinityP3, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
This is part two of our three-part series produced by Ampel, the audio experience agency. Part one, we talked with Josh Butt, Ampel’s Executive Producer and Founder about the power of getting your audio branding right.
In this episode, Ampel’s General Manager and Chief Strategist, Michelle Lomas, is going to talk about why audio is such a great option for brands who want to grow their profile. Now, I’m going to let Michelle tell me more about it. So, please welcome Michelle. Hi, Michelle.
Michelle:
Hi Darren. Thanks for having us.
Darren:
Very welcome. And look, this is such an interesting topic because you’re right, audio has just exploded. Podcasting or audio branding has really started to take off in the last few years. But where are we at?
Michelle:
We’re doing pretty well. We’re having really interesting conversations with clients and the nice thing is that brands don’t need convincing that they need audio. I think the next conversation that they are having is how do we do it? How do we tap into it? How do we make an impact? And how do we create great audio experiences that are also going to deliver to our KPIs.
So, really nice time to be jumping into the space. It’s a really exciting space, great storytelling. The next stage is educating clients on how we do it. And that’s what I want to do today; help people understand.
Darren:
And look, you’re right about how do they do it, because most marketers would be working with advertising agencies, and advertising’s quite different to audio, isn’t it? Because you make one TV campaign. But here, you’re actually creating a series of content, each one building on the previous, which is quite a different discipline, isn’t it?
Michelle:
Well, you have to think about it like its own channel. The best way we like to describe it is if you’ve got to compare it to anything, compare it to social. Well, you can have a social campaign, but in general, you look at social as an always-on campaign or always-on strategy, I should say, that’s there to deliver a long-term goal for you.
And how does that content piece by piece play out to deliver your message, to create an impact, to build audiences, and communities? And that’s exactly what podcasting is too. You need to think about it from a long-term perspective that it’s there to deliver to your brand objectives, to build communities, to build an audience, and for people to learn more about you.
Darren:
And you’re right, it’s about building that relationship and getting that engagement over a series of episodes or content, one after another.
Michelle:
Or as we say, over the years, that’s the beauty of the channel. People keep coming back. We have podcasts that have been running, some as high as six years, and people continue to still listen.
Darren:
Well, ours is seven years, so-
Michelle:
There you go. Seven years. And do you still get listened?
Darren:
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a core following that you notice the numbers going up and down depending on the guest. But there is always a quite substantial core following that is listening every week.
Michelle:
Yes, exactly. And so, there’s so much opportunity for brands, it’s just another channel I think that needs to be added to the mix. And brands, lucky for us, there’s not a lot of convincing in that aspect. Most marketers are listeners as well.
Particularly, the marketing industry is quite high in terms of usage and consumption. And so, we’re usually talking to high listeners. So, on average 7 to 12 episodes a week. So, that’s always easy to have that conversation in terms of them understanding the impact that it can create.
It’s more so how do I incorporate that into my mix? How much does it cost? What is it going to take to make it? And what do I need to make that’s going to create an impact?
Darren:
And it’s important getting those things agreed upfront because you really can’t just put your toe in the water with this, can you?
Michelle:
No, no. You definitely can’t dip your toe in the water. It’s not something where you can do a couple of eps and see how it goes. It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
So, before we start and dive into some of the key questions that I commonly get asked by brands, I wanted to set the scene in terms of what the market looks like at the moment, and talk a bit about the stats, because everyone loves stats.
So, the latest Edison Research, Infinite Dial did come out and painted a very positive picture on the Australian landscape. So, 40% of Australians now listen to a podcast at least monthly, which is a jump of 3% from the previous year. And in addition, 26% are also listening weekly, which is consistent with the previous year.
And for us, that’s a really positive nod to the growth in the industry. I think a lot of people made the assumption that a couple of years of COVID, being at home, that’s why podcast boom. And then there would be this plateau or lull. In fact, it’s the opposite. We’re seeing more entrance and new listeners coming into the category, and the frequency has grown.
So, actually on average, Australians are listening up to seven episodes a week. The big and heavy listeners are actually listening up to 12 episodes a week.
Yeah, right? I have no idea where they find the time. I mean, they must be short ones. There’s no way they’re like the two-hour marathon kind of episodes from Joe Rogan.
I also find it really interesting in that research piece to understand where people are listening. So, 83% of people are listening at home. And I do think that sort of high growth, a number of factors, most people listen when they’re cleaning their house or doing the household chores, washing the dishes or cooking.
But also, there’s been a big growth in smart speakers at home. So, one in four Aussies now have a smart speaker, and on average, they have two in the house. So, maybe one in the living room, one in the bedroom, whatever. So, they also are able to listen to podcasts through those smart devices.
60% also listen in the car, which is a really good number and probably will continue to grow as we get some more smart speakers in cars and things like that. And 50% are listening while walking around, which is pretty unsurprising.
But what is surprising is that 20% of people listen at work while multitasking. So, for all the bosses out there, just FYI, some people are listening to podcasts instead of like focusing on work (don’t know how you do that either). And 19% actually listen in the gym.
It’s not motivating for me to listen to True Crime, but I think for some people it is. So, yeah, really interesting stance. But as you can see, really positive growth and momentum. And it just proves that podcast has become a mainstream channel. If up to 40% of people are listening at least once a week, that’s a pretty good indication that there’s a lot of potential there for brands to be able to tap into new audiences.
And what’s exciting for us as well is yes, it’s growing, but it’s also become a place where a lot of Australians are going there to look for deeper niche information — I have a passion, I have an interest, I want to understand more. And based on what’s happening in the landscape outside of audio, we’re having more trouble targeting.
So, it’s really in our eyes, a great addition to any heavily targeted campaign where you want to target niche communities and audiences with a really tailored message.
Darren:
Yep. So, it’s all about using the content as a way of targeting those audiences.
Michelle:
Absolutely. And communities, we think less about podcast as an execution in itself, but a community that can grow outside of that. Some of the biggest podcasts, even including the ones that we create, we always have communities outside of it.
We have Facebook communities that are highly engaged. We think about leveraging our social channels, et cetera. So, there’s a lot of growth outside of just that podcast as well that can be leveraged.
So, to talk a little bit more about this, we actually have brought in a very special guest, Tom Webster, from Sounds Profitable. He is the go-to for the industry tech news. He’s the go-to for data insights. In fact, he worked at Edison for 25 years and was the guy that delivered the Infinite Dial. So, it’s very exciting to talk to him today.
He is currently at Sounds Profitable, which was founded by Bryan Barletta. Is also the go-to publication and has a phenomenal podcast. We’ll leave all of this information in the show notes for anybody listening.
But if you want to be tapped into what’s happening across the globe in the industry and get access to some of the latest research and trends, start following Sounds Profitable.
So, yeah, I was very lucky to chat to Tom the other day, and in that conversation, I asked him lots of questions around what’s happening in the international market, what are the trends that we can see, and how Australia’s faring compared to some of the bigger markets as well. So, have a listen.
So, what trends are you seeing in the marketplace at the moment? Not just Australia, but I guess globally. What are the sort of things that you’re starting to see from a content perspective?
Tom:
Well, I think we’re starting to see more mass appeal content. We’re starting to see more celebrities become involved with podcasting in the past couple of years than they have before. SmartLess has become a huge show with its celebrity cast and a lot of celebrities are dipping their toe into the water. So, that’s one trend.
And I think we’re also seeing a lot of colonization or cross-colonization between podcasting and Hollywood as a lot of podcasts are essentially cheaper than a pilot and they come with a built-in audience. So, we’re starting to see a lot more IP being developed that way.
Michelle:
Yeah, and what do you think are some of the things that are coming up from a trend perspective that are maybe not so great?
Tom:
Well, depending on who you talk to, we seem to be in the middle of a global recession. And I think if anything, the podcast mark from an advertising perspective, I think it’s proving to be a little bit more resilient than some other advertising vehicles.
So, what we’re hearing from our clients and sponsors is that some budgets are maybe being reserved a little bit, but that money I think will come back.
Michelle:
And it does make a challenge, I think often when we’re proposing even general buy a spot in this show or that spot — it doesn’t even have to be a partnership.
We’re still being compared at a CPM level compared to other digital channels, which is such a shame because what podcast does, it punches well above its way in terms of consideration, efficacy, awareness, and even action.
We see huge click-through rates with some of the work that we do for brands. So, it’s a shame that we’re still having these sort of early conversations and brands are still evaluating it on a cost and a CPM and a reach basis when it’s not really how you should be measuring the effectiveness of that advertising.
Tom:
It’s never been fair. Podcasting has always been thought of similar to display advertising and it’s not. It’s got better metrics than radio does. Radio gets by in any country that it’s measured in with a pretty small sample and sort of a hybrid measurement system. And I think podcasting throws off a lot better data. So, that comparison has really never been fair.
Michelle:
No, it hasn’t. And it’s such a challenge to continue to push forward. But we do because we see the results and we know once a brand tries something and they realize how much of an impact it’s having on their business, even a halo effect on all of their other activity, they’re sold. But it’s just getting that first campaign or that first podcast that they’re going to create across the line.
Tom:
Yeah. It’s a bit of a chicken and egg thing too, because you can get attribution metrics, you can get brand lift studies, and you can get all that information, but it requires a big buy for that to be worth it. And some advertisers don’t want to place that big buy without that kind of proof. So, it’s something has to give.
Michelle:
Yeah. We have a client at the moment who has seen a tremendous effect on their business from just, we launched — it’s a B2B podcast that’s targeted toward marketers, and they’re an affiliate marketing platform, and they’ve seen a huge lift in lead generation.
Their LinkedIn engagement has gone through the roof, yet they can’t attribute it 100% back to the podcast. They’re like, “We know that it’s done the job for us because the before and after is very clear” and it gives that room for questioning. And so, it’s very hard.
Tom:
Yeah, I worked on a brand lift study once for a major casual restaurant chain here in the United States, and they’re very well-known. They’re the top three in terms of recall and notoriety and things like that. But they did something really interesting with the podcast campaign.
They tested a message in the podcast advertising that they didn’t use anywhere else. Their messaging is usually based around it’s a place to watch the game, it’s a place to see sports and drink beer and eat wings.
But the message that they had in the podcast was a different one. It was about a one-hour lunch guarantee. They were just trying to build their lunch business and it was the only place they were running it. And it was a very easy thing to show in a post campaign brand lift study that the podcast advertising was incredibly effective at that because-
Michelle:
It was the only one.
Tom:
Yeah. In the study, we actually gave three messages; two of the ones that they always run, and one was the one that was podcast exclusive. And that was overwhelmingly recalled as the message compared to the other two, which were very well-known.
So, I think it always helps if the brand does something different on the podcast and they do elsewhere, but most brands aren’t wired that way.
Michelle:
What do you think are some of the main benefits a brand can gain from creating a podcast or advertising in a podcast?
Tom:
Yeah, there’s a really key distinction I think that either true sponsorship or brand advertising can give you. And that is you can run an ad for a product and it might make people consider the product or think differently about the product.
But I think a brand advertising in a podcast actually makes people think differently about the people behind that product, about the people who work at that company. And there has been research done on true sponsorship like that, not in podcasting, but in other forms of media. And that it absolutely has that effect. That people change how they feel about the people behind the company. And that has a tremendous effect, I think.
So, there’s still a lot more work to be done. I know we’re going to continue to do regular research at Sounds Profitable to try to advance the space and try to fill those knowledge gaps as best we can, but I think we know what works.
Michelle:
We like to say in Ampel, when we’re talking to new clients, that podcast is kind of the new social. When social came along and before it became complicated, I’ll say, it was a place where brands recognized that they could tell a bit more of their story and they could align with things that matter to them. They could share the values of the business, they could share the people behind the business too.
And as social has become much more commoditized, complicated, the algorithm and discoverability has made it very hard. Podcast has become a new space for that. But even more permissible because it’s long form and people want to listen.
As long as you’re creating content that’s not self-serving, but something that aligns more closely to your brand and your audience, they’re much more receptive to listen. So, there’s so much benefits from so many perspectives in terms of building that brand awareness, brand love, affinity, because you have a platform that audiences are very happy to listen to as long as it’s not all about you, it’s something that’s a bit about both of you.
Tom:
Yeah, and I think we can continue to push the boundaries a little bit in podcasting in terms of what types of ads we have and allow, and things like that.
I mean, ultimately, I think people will cut the podcast an awful lot of slack. You see people kind of grumbling about programmatic advertising and dynamic insertion and things like that. But what they’re really complaining about is bad ads. And hopefully-
Michelle:
Please don’t put your radio ads in podcasts.
Tom:
Yeah.
Michelle:
It’s a big no.
Tom:
Yeah, they really don’t work. It’s a big no. And it’s so irritating too as a content creator to put so much effort into 57 minutes of an hour and then just throw it out the window with the other three. Like you don’t get to do that.
Michelle:
Well, Tom, thank you so much for your time.
Tom:
Super. Thanks for having me.
Michelle:
We’ve just listened to Tom. Really, really interesting stuff there. Obviously, mainstream channel, great opportunity for brands. And the thing that’s exciting about podcasting is the infinite possibilities for storytelling.
There are so many different formats. You can do a documentary style, you can do an interview style, you can do a fictional podcast, you can do a cooking show that’s true crime. You can mix genres together. There’s so much fun to be had in this space.
And I always think what excites me about working in this industry and its storytelling capabilities, is we’ve never really seen anything like it since, say Instagram, came out. When Instagram came out, everyone was like, “Whoa, here is a social network that is so visual and beautiful. I can be inspiring, I can have aesthetically pleasing, beautiful photography for my products, people love it. Here is another new format that’s really changing the game in terms of creativity.”
And some of the trends coming out is so exciting. And so, there’s not only opportunity for brands to get their message out, do it in a way that’s going to build communities, but do it in a fun way or a unique way, or a surprising way.
Darren:
I really liked that idea of giving your brand a voice because so much of the work done around branding is quite visual. It’s the way you look, but it’s actually the conversation, and there’s a lot of discussion about creating a conversation rather than just shouting at your audience.
Michelle:
Yes. Or what a lot of marketing does is requires consumers to do a lot of the research and stuff themselves. And again, I think that’s what podcasts can do. It can allow you the brand to have a longer conversation with the consumer to really share what you are about and to help them get to know you as a brand a little bit better.
So, yeah, I mean from a storytelling and really delivering the brand voice, it’s incomparable, I think, to other channels. And there is permission to do that. That is one of the nicest things about podcast too. Listeners know when they’re clicking on a branded podcast, they’re clicking on a brand of podcast.
They know it’s 30 minutes, they know that the brand has something to say, but they’re choosing to — 30 or 40 minutes of this uninterrupted, intimate moment where you can have a really lovely conversation with your potential customers, share who you are, really appeal to maybe some of the things that they care about, and then drive action.
And that’s why we see such higher impact. We’re seeing 14, 15, 16% click through rates on a listen to a website which drives to a lead or a purchase. That’s much higher than other channels. And that’s because you’ve got the time and consumers are giving you permission to talk.
Darren:
Because I’ve always said to my guests on the Managing Marketing Podcast that this is a conversation between us. And imagine that the audience, we’re in a cafe or a bar, and the audience is sitting at the next table, but they’re listening into our conversation.
And I like that idea because it’s happened to me many times. You’re sitting there somewhere public and you know the next table’s having a much more interesting conversation than you are.
Michelle:
So, you lean in.
Darren:
So, you lean in.
Michelle:
And all of a sudden, you realize you’ve stopped talking and then they’ve realized you’re listening. Yes.
Darren:
And it’s that awkward moment. Where suddenly it’s, “Oh, you’re listening to our conversation, join in, join in.” Rather than the embarrassment, it becomes you’re part of this conversation.
Michelle:
Yeah. And that is the beauty of podcasts. You feel like you’re sitting at the table with someone. And I think we like to say, when you’re looking at something visually, you can shut your eyes, you can look away. When something’s in your ear and your headphone’s in your ear, you can’t ignore it, and you end up immersing yourself in that conversation.
And really great storytelling in the audio space uses a lot of elements like sound design and other conversational elements, and strategies to be able to immerse that person even deeper into the conversation, so they feel like they’re sitting at that table when that discussion’s being had, or they’re in the room of that fictional podcast when action is taking place.
So, we thought about the best way to structure this and I could talk a lot about our strategic process, but I thought it might be more helpful for the listeners to hear some of the commonly asked questions and how we would answer them.
Darren:
And I’m sure there’s some questions that come up time and time again.
Michelle:
Every time.
Darren:
What would be the most common question that you get asked?
Michelle:
How much does a podcast cost?
Darren:
How long’s a piece of string?
Michelle:
How long’s a piece of string? How long do you want to go for? What’s your objective? What’s the format? Who’s the host?
100% the most asked question, and I always see in a meeting when presenting ideas, they’re itching to ask it at the end. And I think that’s fair because for most brands, it’s a new channel. It’s something that they’re testing out or trialing out. They know they need to be there, but they don’t know how much of an impact it’s going to be on their overall marketing mix. Is it going to have a halo effect?
The answer is yes. A bit of a cheat there, we’ll talk about that one in a little bit. But yeah, it’s a fair question when there’s trepidation stepping into a new space.
But the nice thing is, is that it doesn’t cost a lot and doesn’t have to. Compared to other channels and content creation, it’s fairly cost-efficient. I mean, if I was to give a range, it can be anywhere from two and a half grand an episode to 10 grand an episode, or even longer.
Like if you want to do a fictional podcast and have incredible sound design and bring actors in and whatever that may be, it could cost even more than that. But it is very cost-efficient, especially when you’re considering that two and a half grand at the lower scale could be delivering you a 30 or 40-minute episode that’s there forever, and is there to grow your channel and your brand.
But at the end of the day, putting the rate aside, what really you need to evaluate is not how much a podcast is going to cost, but how much impact am I going to get from it. You should be thinking about what’s my objective being here? Is it to build a community? Am I here to drive leads? Am I here to sell product? What do I want to do? Is it just for brand? And evaluate it from that perspective.
And really think about, okay, if I’m doing a brand campaign, how much would I spend in my big beautiful TVC creation with maybe a one or two-minute video that I’m going to run on YouTube and big brand redesign on my website, versus creating a 10 episode podcast series that’s going to communicate at a very intimate level what I’m trying to say in 30 seconds somewhere else for $500,000 or a million dollars.
Darren:
And I think that’s a really good question that often doesn’t get asked in many aspects of marketing. And that is what is the purpose of doing this? Because a lot of things get done because of fear of missing out. Other people are doing it, so we need to do it.
But unless you get to the very core of, well, what is the purpose of this? What is it we are trying to achieve? Because to your point a minute ago, is that podcast could be many things to many people. It could be a great way of actually engaging with your distributors or your channels, your business channels.
It could be a great way of bringing a face and personality to your frontline staff. There are more things than just talking about your product that could fit in with that marketing strategy. And that’s the question that has to be answered; to do a podcast just because, well, we think we should do a podcast is really not enough for the type of emotional commitment.
Your point is the resource commitment, time and money, is relatively cost-effective. But it’s also something that you’re going to have to sustain over a period of time to really see the results for. So, unless you’re very clear about what it is that you’re trying to achieve, then I don’t think that would be easy to sustain, would it?
Michelle:
No. Which also leads into one of the other questions that we get asked a lot, which is, “We have an idea, can you just make it?” We get that a lot. And often, we have to say no because there is no purpose, there’s no vision. And you have built a podcast with yourself in mind and what you want to push out to your audience, rather than who your audience is and what they want to listen to.
And as part of the process that we take, it is defining the purpose. As we like to say, if you can’t define your purpose in a sentence, then you need to work harder at figuring out what the purpose of that podcast is. And we help them define their audience. And then what we do is a vision wheel, which is essentially, here’s a cheat sheet for everybody.
It’s essentially one-page model that allows us to define who we are, what we have to say, who the audience is, and why it matters to them. And I have spent with both brands and creators up to two hours sometimes doing that one page because it’s hard.
It’s hard to step outside of your own brand and what you want to say and the purpose that you have; as a brand, we’re investing a lot in environmental sustainability, and I want everybody to know that. And so, automatically you want to create a podcast that talks about all of your sustainability efforts.
But an audience doesn’t want to hear what a brand’s doing. An audience wants to be inspired by sustainability and the other people who are doing it, and the brands who are enabling those people to do it because they’re also investing in it.
And so, maybe that switch is to talk about the companies that you as a company are donating to, that you are enabling, that you are fostering that growth. And so, we spend a lot of time doing that because honestly, brands think they know what they want because they’re looking at it in their own lens, and we have to take that step back.
Darren:
And I think this is where podcasting is also very different from advertising. Advertising, press releases — there’s so many different ways that a brand and a company gets to say, “Well, this is what we want to tell you whether you like it or not.”
Whereas, podcasting requires you to really get into the mind of your audience and work out well, I have something that I want to say, but what is it that they want to hear? What is it that they’re going to be engaged in? And a lot of times that doesn’t actually happen in a lot of communications.
It’s sort of, this is the agenda that we are fulfilling rather than here’s the audience, how do we engage them? And to your point earlier about building community, really building that group of people.
Michelle:
And I mean a lot of that does come down to the format itself. If I only have 30 seconds and I’m paying thousands of dollars for that spot, I’m going to put myself first. But if I have 30 or 40 minutes uninterrupted time with a listener, I can do a lot more, and I can still fit my commercial messaging in there.
So, there’s no reason as a brand that you can’t do quite an altruistic podcast that’s there for the listeners to learn something new and still have your 90-second spot in the middle of that episode to have your commercial messaging in there.
And the nice thing about podcasts themselves as research has told us, is that 70% of us is perfectly fine with that commercial message. They don’t need to fast forward, they know it’s there because it’s there to deliver great content and there’s a purpose for it. And they’re quite happy to listen.
And so, you still have permission as you’re delivering content that’s aligned with your vision, but maybe not necessarily just talking about yourself for 30 minutes; you still have a window in there to talk about yourself for 30 minutes.
Darren:
Yeah, you’ve earned the right.
Michelle:
That’s right.
Darren:
You’ve delivered content that is entertaining, interesting, educational, whatever it is that’s fulfilled the listeners needs. So, then, they’ll accept the fact that you’re now going to give them the sales message.
Michelle:
Correct.
Darren:
And in fact, I’d imagine they’d be even more open to it because they’re feeling like, okay, where’s the reciprocity here? You’ve fulfilled by needs.
Now, what are some of the other questions that you get asked?
Michelle:
Oh mate, so many. My favorite one is that we want “insert employee” to host it. So, everyone’s got an employee in mind when they first come to us. It’s the CEO. To be fair, it’s not always the CEO. It’s maybe the COO or account director. We often also get, “There’s this young guy in the office, he’s really funny.”
Darren:
I know a few brands that have fallen for that. But the young guy started the podcast and then three months later, left.
Michelle:
Yes, and that’s the one thing we say. It’s like it’s always great if you would like to, but people leave, so always remember that.
Darren:
And could end up with their competitors doing a podcast.
Michelle:
And then what happens to the other episodes and how do you introduce that person and how do you get a new host in? And then your listeners are used to one host and then they have to warm up to the next.
So, that’s always the biggest thing that we remind people. People aren’t permanent employees, they come and go. So, just be careful with that one.
But there are so many other factors that make a great host. Are they a great listener and an active listener? Do they have expertise in the space? You can really pick a good host from a bad host because a bad host will read from a script.
“Okay, my next question is …” and then when the question’s finished, they go, “Hmm, so my next question was …”
Darren:
Now, I did one of those, it was a podcast, they reached out to me from New York and they sent through the five questions and I gave them one or two word answers, and they just went, “Hmm … now, the next question.” And I think we finished it in under 10 minutes when it was meant to run about 20 minutes.
And he said, “Is there anything else you’d like to share with us?” Was the final question. I went, “No, thank you.” And it never actually ran, I don’t know why.
Michelle:
Oh, wonder why. And that’s the hard thing. It’s hard actually to contribute to a conversation, especially if you don’t have expertise or something good to say. And often, people who don’t have that expertise or aren’t naturally curious as well — sometimes people like to host because they want to host something but they’re not actually interested in the topic.
And so, then you’ll find you’ll have those scenarios where they’re just reading off a script because they’re a bit uncomfortable and self-conscious and they don’t feel confident to contribute. So, that selection process for a host is so important. So, you do get that engaging conversation and you don’t get something that has to go in the bin because it sounds a bit dry and there’s lack of chemistry and whatever else.
So, those things are really important and the hosting conversation can take a while. And that’s also once we alert brands to the fact that is this person the right person, do you think they’re going to stick around? Do you think they have the expertise? Can they hold that conversation with the people that you’re hoping to interview?
And usually, that comes to a realization of maybe not, then finding the right host can take a while but is so incredibly important.
Darren:
Well, it is a casting job, isn’t it?
Michelle:
Absolutely?
Darren:
Because if it’s the voice of the brand, you’d want to make sure that they are the voice of your brand.
Michelle:
Yes. And that they’re also passionate. You want to host, especially if they’re not in your organization that’s going to come in and be just as passionate about distributing, sharing across their social channels, bringing guests in, contributing to conversations, ideas, the growth of the podcast, and they’re in long-term.
Darren:
Michelle, you know the great saying, once you’ve mastered sincerity, anything’s possible.
Michelle:
Yes.
Darren:
So, there are professional hosts that can do that.
Michelle:
Yes. Another really common one is – it’s less of a question and more of a statement; “I got a campaign launching in two weeks, can we be up in two weeks?” And again, I hate just to be the no-sayer, but the answer is no; no, we need time.
I think what brands don’t realize is that a podcast is not a tactic, it’s a channel and you are launching a new channel where consumers can find you. And so, there’s that thought that needs to go into how you look from a cover perspective to stand out in the players, how you sound, and hopefully, everybody listening to this would’ve listened to the first episode with Josh because I’m sure he went into great detail about the importance of how your brand sounds.
But that takes time. And we also have to do the strategy. So, really, defining the purpose, the audience, the vision, and then thinking from there; okay, so how do we really tailor this really well so it’s really engaging content. That process can take anywhere from six weeks, eight weeks to three months. It takes time.
Darren:
The way you talk about that, it reinforces the difference between inbound marketing and outbound marketing. And a lot of marketing is outbound, and this is very much about building a content channel that attracts your audience and your community to you.
And getting that right is so important because it does take time to actually build that. And if you don’t get it right to start with, you could end up giving up because you’re not getting the results simply because you’ve overlooked something in the way you’ve developed that.
Michelle:
And often, that’s the case where we see brands who tried and feel like they failed and never go back, and they blame the channel. But you listen to the podcast, it’s not edited well. There’s no distinctive brand. It’s very much self-serving and it’s not there for the listener.
And if they’d just taken the time, I think to build the strategy, work with an agency; don’t just do it in-house because you’re too jaded by your objectives and what you want to do and you’re too entrenched in the business.
You need people on the outside who are focused on building content for audiences to help you land that strategy. If you want to record in-house, record in-house all you want. Although, I do recommend use an agency to edit. That’s always my recommendation.
Darren:
The other thing is that being a content or inbound strategy, there is also opportunities for extending the podcast into other formats. And I’m thinking of this from the perspective that we transcribe this podcast, and then put that on the website. And we get as many people listening, downloading the podcast as reading it.
And then we take where there’s a theme, we’ll take those transcriptions and get an editor to edit those into a book. So, there’s conversations in managing media, conversations in managing marketing, conversations in managing agencies. And that becomes a book that is basically made up of those transcriptions.
So, you need to start thinking of it less as a piece of advertising and more as a piece of content that can be then packaged any number of ways to help sort of expand the engagement because everyone has different ways that they like to take information.
Michelle:
When you are creating a podcast, you can’t just create a podcast. You have to think about all the ways you get more volume and value out of the content that you’ve created. But also, that’s a great way to aid discoverability. Those transcriptions are there for SEO. You know, you are going to start to be discovered when people are searching for a certain topic, they’ll be able to land on your podcast and at the end of the day, you’re adding more followers to your podcast.
There are so many of those little tips and tricks that I think brands just don’t think about initially. They just think, “Oh, I’ll just create a podcast and it’ll be in Spotify, and everyone will love it and maybe I’ll put it in my newsletter to tell people we’ve got a podcast, and that’s it.”
But they might be surprised to understand just how much extra work should be done to aid discoverability and to leverage it across all your channels.
You should be creating minimum, if you’ve got a weekly podcast; minimum one social video post that you’re putting across all your channels. You should be creating a special section on your website that talks specifically to the podcast, has the video trailer there for people to watch, and then has individual pages for each episode that you do where you can put the transcript and leverage SEO.
You should be thinking about all your show notes, another opportunity for SEO and discoverability. And then video is really important. A lot of brands are surprised that we get so many incremental lessons. Sometimes up to 30% on YouTube when we post a YouTube video.
It doesn’t have to be hard. But thinking about all the other ways that you can really leverage that content to drive listeners should be part of everybody’s strategy as well.
Darren:
It also reframes the whole investment idea as well because you’re suddenly getting multiple pieces of content in different formats.
Michelle:
For your other channels.
Darren:
Exactly.
Michelle:
Yes. So, you can dip in like if we’re going to be cheeky, dip into your SEO budget, dip into your social budget because those social posts are going to be fueling your social strategy.
Darren:
These are all of the things that are considered as part of developing the strategy, aren’t they?
Michelle:
Yes. And that’s why it takes a while because you do have to really consider all the touch points; where are we going to distribute it, and how are we going to drive audiences.
For all of the benefits that podcasts bring, it is a challenge from a discoverability perspective. There are a lot of podcasts out there. And the algorithm is hard. It’s hard to get exposure in the platforms themselves, so you have to do a really good job of really promoting it.
There are lots of little tips and tricks too that we share, like the importance of having the right guests on and using their channels to promote it as well. That always drives great incremental listens. The end of the show doing plugs, asking follows, write reviews, all of those things matter. So, there’s lots of little tricks to help you along the way as well.
But it is the one challenge. And so, for brands thinking about, I’ll just create it and see how it goes — put the time in to actually think about your distribution strategy and make sure you’ve set it up correctly.
So, ending the piece, we thought it might be nice to sit down with Zane McIntyre, he’s the CEO and co-founder of Commission Factory, and one of our clients who has just gone through this process. We had a really good chat about the entire process and it’s really interesting because they came to us with some of the things that we’ve just discussed.
They came to us with a couple of episodes in the bag. They came to us with a name and an idea that they already wanted, and we said that’s great, but let us take a step back and have a look at it. And we ended up with quite a different podcast to the one we started with.
And so, this was a really great conversation. Zane is an incredible leader and advocate for audio as well. So, again, it wasn’t a hard conversation with him in wanting to do a podcast. It was more so, how do we do it to the best of our ability to create the greatest impact.
And again, a great case study. In waiting to do it right, this took us about six months to develop, but we are seeing exceptional results — that we’re not seeing thousands and thousands of listens, but we are seeing really qualified leads coming in and conversions, and that’s what you want to aim for.
Darren:
Well, let’s have a listen to Zane.
Michelle:
Zane, thank you for joining us. So, we wanted to have a little chat today about Flex Your Hustle, the wonderful podcast which we are creating with you for Commission Factory. You decided late last year that you guys wanted to add a podcast to the mix, to marketing mix. How did that come about?
Zane:
I’d like to say there wasn’t any FoMo, but there was a little bit of it there. I mean, we ourselves enjoyed listening to podcast and we could see other people in related industries doing podcasts. And we’ve always tried to position ourselves as thought leaders and thought, well, is this a different medium that we haven’t really explored properly and that we should take advantage of.
So, we set about sort of looking into what it would take and why would we do one. Is there a good story for us or is there a potential of return for this as well. So, our exploration took us down many, many paths, but also, overwhelming as well, because it was new for us.
And so, having to learn everything from scratch, what do we need? What are the tools that we need? It became really overwhelming and daunting as well.
But ultimately, we did want to continue down the path of thought leadership and brand awareness. But we’ve always tried to present ourselves as very authentic and genuine. So, we wanted to tell stories and tell our story the way that we normally do, which is generally quite casual and informal and fun but authentic always.
So, we made the decision to go ahead based on that thought leadership and continuing our brand awareness. It was a good investment. We could either go putting the money into traditional advertising or we can go and do something new, something none of us have done before.
So, for us, internally as well, it enthused us in ways that paid search or paid social never could, because this was new, it was fun. We actually had a product at the end of it as well, something that we could be proud of.
So, it was an easy decision. Sure, I had to move some funds around and budgets because it was something we didn’t budget for when we set our budgets last year. But we felt it was important enough that like we’ll make this work.
Michelle:
So, we did do quite a lengthy strategy process. I think by the time you guys came to us in December, it took us about three or four months to get to the strategy stage before we were ready to produce. Were there elements in that strategy process that surprised you or some things that you learned or things that you hadn’t really considered before?
Zane:
I think that either even with the name of the podcast and the direction we ended up taking was far more articulated and succinct than where we started from. Where the name of it was quite broad and we were just looking at stories from people, but no real theme that was carrying it through.
So, I think during that process when we were working with you guys, we articulated much better the kind of stories we’re interested in. And then also, we were thinking about the Commission Factory story and where we are, and it’s like, wait, we have a hustle story too.
And so, that’s where I guess the, the name with Flex Your Hustle came from as well. It’s like there are hustle stories out there, people who achieved great things with limited resources or no knowledge and had to learn on the job because that was our story.
So, therefore, it felt personal and then ties back again to that sort of genuine, authentic brand that we’ve tried to build.
Michelle:
It’s really funny, in the process of the strategy, I remember presenting the ideas and working on those things together, and defining who the audience was. And there was one thing that we disagreed on, the only thing; you didn’t want any commercial messaging at all. Do you remember this?
Zane:
I do. I do remember that piece.
Michelle:
Yeah, you didn’t want to put any commercial messaging in there. You’re like, “No, this is just about featuring our customers and our publishers.”
And we actually really pushed hard and said, “No, no, it’s okay. Like it’s actually okay to have your commercial messaging in there because listeners and podcasts understand it’s being paid for. That content is being paid for and produced by a brand, and that’s how you get all this great content. So, there’s like a permission in a lot of ways.” How do you feel about that now?
Zane:
I feel okay about it now maybe because I had approval to do so. I mean, it stemmed from our industry. We have either a lot of players or competitors in this industry where so much of their messaging and the content they put out there is extremely self-gratuitous.
And we really wanted to make sure that this was about the customers, the people out there who are hustling, who are building their empires, and who want to work with us because our focus should have been always on them and how we can benefit them.
And whilst our software that we build, we always have to consider like how this benefiting the customers; this in of itself was almost an extension of that, where it’s like, well, how can this content benefit the customers?
And so, I was mindful of not making this a gratuitous exercise where all we did was talk about how wonderful we are. Some other players in the industry definitely do that, and we didn’t want to be that. But I guess, I was happy to compromise a little here as long as it wasn’t too much and too in your face, and it just felt like the podcast was purely an advertisement for us.
But really, I feel that we do focus on the customers or these entrepreneurs that are out there, mixed with a little bit of commercial messaging.
Michelle:
I think for the listeners who maybe haven’t listened to an episode; in general, our episodes are about 20 to 30 minutes long interview style. And in sort of halfway through, we have a commercial message which we alert the listeners to that was cutting to an end for Commission Factory.
But what it does that 60-second gap, which we’re very open about to listeners, is it almost gives us permission to not have to talk about it in the content. We always make an effort to ask a question with our guests around how using affiliate marketing, is it working for you? But the rest of the 20, 30 minutes is their story, and getting to the other pieces of their hustle, and getting that kind of out.
So, I almost feel as though that commercial messaging, again, gives us that sort of permission and freedom to have a really great comfortable conversation that doesn’t feel like a big old advertorial for Commission Factory which is probably why it’s doing so well.
Zane:
Yeah, that’s right. Exactly. And so, that was my compromise and I was very happy with that. Yes.
Michelle:
So, how’s it actually working for you and the business?
Zane:
Let’s say even with Rob’s episode that he did.
Michelle:
Rob Godwin at Lovehoney.
Zane:
That’s right. I feel that for our team as well, it was an opportunity for them to realize something that maybe they didn’t know before, which was the struggle that let’s say, adult toys and gifts and sexual wellness companies, they can’t use traditional mediums for advertising because there’s just so many restrictions and censorship on that.
So, some of my staff even said, “Oh, I didn’t realize that they weren’t able to actually use like Facebook and all that sort of thing.” Like no, no, they can’t. And so, it gives us a deeper understanding of our customers and the people we work with, but also, by producing this pod and the sort of marketing we can do around it, it’s opening up more conversations with people as well.
My goal now, is to ensure that I have a level of correlation and causation because the amount of inbound leads we started getting when we launched increased — well, actually, I saw them increase, and when did this happen? And so, when I looked, and it’s about when the podcast started.
So, it’s like, right, well I can’t necessarily correlate this at this moment, but the timing is interesting. So, we are seeing more interest in us, but it’s also the conversations and engagement levels that we’ve received on social media as well by sharing our podcast, talking about it, talking about our guests. So much so that even this year compared to last year, we have had a 400% increase in engagement on our social media.
Michelle:
Unbelievable.
Zane:
Yeah, massive. I thought it was a mistake until we looked into a phone like no, no, that’s right.
Michelle:
We did have a conversation before we launched; a conversation, we had a very long meeting and we talked about all the different ways that this podcast had to be promoted to make it a success. And you guys jumped on board 100%.
You’ve done all the best practice stuff, you’ve shared it out to all your employees to share, you’ve got a space on the website, you’re using transcripts, thinking about SEO, all of those elements. So, it’s unsurprising, I think, that we’ve seen the success so far that we’ve seen. What’s the feedback been like internally and externally?
Zane:
The feedback, let’s say, internally, has been great as well. So, we’ve had staff talking about it on our internal messaging. So, we use Teams. We used to be Slack, but now, we use the Aldi of Slack, which is Teams. And so, they’re all-
Michelle:
I’ve never heard that before. That’s excellent.
Zane:
So, we use that, and we announce whenever a new podcast is out. So, it’s like, “New one dropped this morning, make sure you go listen.” And it’s great to hear staff giving feedback as well. Like that was really great. And they also, loved that we have tried to keep, let’s say, the timing of each podcast relatively low. So, it can just be absorb this and then get on with your day.
So, they’ve loved it. And then I’ve had people at the gym come up to me and say, “Oh, I listened to one of your episodes, it was really good.” And it’s like, “Was it the Lovehoney one? You want to ask me which product we’re talking about?”
So, they are listening to it. Even have had my mom and … podcast with only what, four episodes? Four or five?
Michelle:
Four episodes, yeah.
Zane:
Yeah, four. We’re even getting interest from people who are asking to be a guest. So, that was unexpected at least so early, anyways, I thought maybe season two we would start getting that request.
So, all around, it’s been really positive. But what we’ve loved is that it follows the ethos of Commission Factory as well where maybe we didn’t have millions of dollars to pour into something, but we still produce something that was really polished and high-quality. And that’s kind the standard that I’ve always tried to employ with the company as well.
I know they say it doesn’t have to be fully fleshed out or finished and you can release something. It’s just not my way. Something goes out, it must be good.
Michelle:
And it’s a touch point. If someone listens to that first episode and then they don’t love it, they’re not going to come back. So, you want that experience, whatever experience to be. And it doesn’t take that much effort – maybe a little touch more money to employ a team that can edit and polish and do all of those things, but it makes such a difference.
And I think what we’ve seen with the series as well is people go back. All of that content is ever green. So, it’s not like social where you pop something in a feed and it’s live and you see a huge spike and then you see very minimal activity post a couple of days. We continue to see those episodes listened to.
I mean, some of our series, we’ve got some series that have been running for six years, and those first season episodes are still listened to six years later.
Zane:
We’ll improve things too as we go on. But first impressions last.
Michelle:
They do, they really do. So, if you are talking to a brand and a brand says, “I love what you do and I kind of want to do it myself,” what would you say to them?
Zane:
I would say it’s maybe not going to happen as fast as you think it might happen. But definitely get your ducks in a row. Think about your story or the stories you want to tell, what’s the vision for it as well. There are a lot of podcasts out there, but some of them are so broad.
So, really think about is there an audience that you really want to tap into here? And for us, we decided ours was those who are growing, the entrepreneurs, people who have these stories. I guess, this would be a plug for Ampel, but get some help if you haven’t done it before because I truly believe that we wouldn’t be where we are now if we didn’t have some assistance.
And also, just the pure amount of content that we would’ve had to sort of come up with on our own was really daunting. And I’m thinking I already deal with a thousand and one things in a day. And whilst at my level, CEO and co-founder, normally, I wouldn’t be doing these sorts of things. But this was something I took a personal interest in and also, wanted to make sure it was right because it was going to have our name on it.
Michelle:
Alright. Well, thank you for sharing the bit of your story with us. Hopefully, the marketers listening have taken a little bit from that in terms of how to plan and to think about what’s it like to create a podcast.
I’m excited to see where this goes. It’s always interesting to see things like a 13.5% click through rate on a podcast. Because most people, “Oh, we’ll, they action it?” Yeah, they do. They really do. When they hear something, and they like it, and they action it. And I think we actually … didn’t you say you got your first actual signed off contract from a client within the first four weeks?
Zane:
Yes, we did. We didn’t actually realize that it happened until we looked at our marketing campaign attribution like, “Oh wait, there’s a deal connected to this podcast.” So, therefore, that was our first bit of excitement. Like brilliant, okay. We’re a sixth of the way into making it pay for itself.
Michelle:
It’s a start and it’s good. And as like I say, the podcaster marathon, not a sprint. And so, they take time to build and grow, but the stats are already starting to prove themselves. And some of the results and the halo effect you’re seeing in social is just phenomenal. We’re so excited. And we have some amazing guests coming up.
Zane:
We do. The best is yet to come.
Michelle:
The best is 100% yet to come and hopefully, will continue for years to come. So, thank you Zane. Thanks for having us. Thanks for trusting in Ampel too, Annie May, is the host.
Zane:
Not a problem. It’s been a wonderful journey so far.
Darren:
Look, that was fantastic because Zane is a serial entrepreneur. He really does have the results, the business results to actually substantiate that strategy as being a sound business strategy, doesn’t he?
Michelle:
Yeah. And look, his vision is exceptional and he’s not afraid to try new things. And that’s always been why we have found so much success with this podcast as well, because they’ve been open to new messaging, new ideas.
Darren:
Yeah. There’s two things I took out of it. The first is, I love the fact that the business leader is also the marketer, sales … and therefore, this strategy is going through every aspect of the business.
And the second thing is, he is building an asset for the business long-term. Whereas a lot of advertising is considered a cost, his is actually building a brand asset that actually adds value to the business.
Michelle:
And don’t forget as well, it’s something we’re talking about for season two is monetization. Once you build an audience, and particularly in the B2B space, if you have other clients that are trying to reach marketers as well, that’s a great space for you to advertise.
So, there’s opportunities as a brand if you take the investment and build it long-term that you can also monetize that podcast yourself and recoup some of the production dollars that you’re putting into it.
Darren:
Look, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you, Michelle. And we’ll see you all for the next episode. The last in this series where we’ll look at measurement with audio and how the conversation should be framed with brands and advertisers.
Now, Michelle, one last question before you go; what’s the podcast that you listen to?
