Josh Butt is the Founder and Executive Producer of the Audio Content Agency Ampel. In this three-part series of Managing Marketing, the team at Ampel take Trinity P3 Founder and CEO Darren Woolley on a journey through the state of sound. Audio-on-demand has had exceptional growth between 2014-2022 with the huge success of podcasts and radio stations’ acceptance of audio-on-demand technology. Marketers have noticed — and audio advertising, both radio and podcasts, have become a common part of the marketing mix.
As Josh Butt and Darren Woolley discuss, audio advertising has been around for 100+ years, and jingles, audio logos and sonic identifiers have long been used to influence consumer behaviour. Everyone knows that a great song on the radio or a memorable jingle can trigger the brain to feel, remember and transport us to a past memory. So why don’t brands leverage this psychological trigger to build better customer connections and relationships?
In this introduction to a 3 part series focused on audio for brands, and the people tasked with growing them, Ampel founder and EP Josh Butt takes Darren on the journey of creating a great brand sound – from the audio logo to the music and sound mnemonics.
Ampel creates the brand sound for Trinity P3 and extends it into the Managing Marketing podcast through an interactive demonstration. Along the way, Josh will share some favourite jingles, some audio work he wished he did, Sonic ID and sounds to surprise and delight.
You can listen to the podcast here:
“A lot of marketers are not actually understanding that there’s a huge opportunity to create content that people actually want, that you can really own someone by their ears”.
Transcription:
Darren:
A lot of marketers are not actually understanding that there’s a huge opportunity to create content that people actually want, that you can really own someone by their ears.
Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
For the last few years, Josh Butt and Michelle Lomas at Ampel, have regularly been in touch about working with me on my podcast. But then of course, COVID happened and it all went remote.
Audio’s the media of the moment. We wanted to do something that shows why audio is suddenly appealing to everyone. The audience has grown. Brands are spending more money in it, people know it’s working, and there’s still a lack of clarity as to how it works and why.
You’ve probably noticed that we’ve been on hiatus for a few weeks, and so we are kicking off, coming back with three very special episodes. And we’ve asked the team at Ampel to produce a podcast for us.
Not sure what they’re going to do, but I’ll start by handing it over to Josh Butt, the Founder and Executive Producer of Ampel. So, take it away.
Josh:
Thanks. Very grateful for the opportunity to produce this special audio series for you and your listeners. We took the challenge to do something a little bit special.
What I’d love to do with you on your show is essentially take people through a bit of history of audio, some great advertising, some jingles, audio logos, some ways of working with music.
And then, I’d like to create a music library for you and play you that, to get your perspective of if you like it and want to use it. And then, an audio logo for you and see what you think and see if that’s the kind of thing you want to use.
Darren:
Okay.
Josh:
How does that sound?
Darren:
Yep. Sounds great.
Josh:
I’ve been obsessed with audio my whole life, and I’ve been obsessed with media, and TV, and film, and I’m not that unique.
When I created Ampel, I wanted to always strive to do something at a creative level that is different, even if it’s just for different sakes, just to stand out, I guess, and try something. I don’t mind if people don’t like it, but I just want to have tried it.
Darren:
Well, Josh, it is that type of medium, isn’t it? In that audio allows you to do things that are quite different.
Josh:
And you can poke fun and you can enjoy it, but you can turn it dramatic really quickly. Sketch comedy works so well in audio because it’s cheap, but it doesn’t feel cheap.
My favourite comedians on the radio, Tony Martin and Mick Molloy, and I just love the way they set the scene wherever they are when they did a sketch.
Darren:
Look, and that is a classic use of audio.
Josh:
What is your experience with audio in advertising?
Darren:
Okay, so my experience as a copywriter, was that there was incredible freedom. When you got a radio script, you were pretty much the only person involved in writing the script. You’d then work with someone to produce and record it, and it was all your own work, within reason of getting the client’s approval, you could do all sorts of things.
Whereas when you worked on TV or any of the other media, because the budgets were bigger and everyone wanted to be in it, suddenly, your voice was being drowned out by everyone else’s opinions about what it should be.
Radio was a great opportunity, but it required you to really engage the audience. I did some work with Mushroom. There was a guy, Carl, who used to say to me, “The thing about music is that you don’t realize it, but it’s the soundtrack to your life.” And when you hear a certain track, it will take you back to that point in time.
And I think it’s because when we hear something as opposed to seeing it, that we seem to associate visual memories with it. When you hear certain sounds, you immediately lay that down, not just as an audio memory, but it’ll go down with an emotion and imagery, that then becomes such a rich memory for you. And I think that’s why audio works so well.
Josh:
I couldn’t agree more. I think the fact that you take away your eyes allows your brain to process it in such a different way and to connect dots that you’re not even listening to, because your ears are always open. Like when someone says, “Well, I’m really not happy,” and you go … “Not happy, Jane!”
Darren:
But see, that’s a piece of audio that’s associated with an image. That woman squeezing a little face out of the window, shouting that across the car park.
Whereas, I think audio is where it doesn’t have that imagery associated with it. You create the imagery.
Years ago, I had a girlfriend who broke up with me by telling me which track on the ABBA, Arrival album to listen to, because that’s how she was feeling. And it was, Knowing Me Knowing You.
Now, I can’t remember anything about the music video clip, but I do have lots of imagery of that relationship that’s associated with it. And that’s become a memory for me.
Josh:
We lived in Toronto as kids, and the door in our car would speak and it would say, “A door is a jar.” I think that’s my first sound memory. What I decided to do was find out what the very first bit of audio was, that was ever recorded.
Amazingly, it was recorded via an oil lamp. Yeah, a French inventor; Edouard-Leon Scott de Martinville, etched visual sound waves onto paper, covered in soot and smoke, from a burning oil lamp via a device called a phonautograph.
Darren:
Right.
Josh:
A phonautograph.
Josh:
From April 1860, that sound was, 17 years before Edison. 1888, Arthur Sullivan etched music on a phonograph.
Darren:
Not bad.
Josh:
So, Arthur Sullivan was quoted saying, “I am astonished and somewhat terrified at the wonderful power you have developed, and terrified of the thought that so much hideous and bad music may be put on record forever.” If only he knew what would come with radio advertising.
While we’re here doing the history of sound, the first indigenous corroboree, from 1901, cylinder recordings from Central Australia by Spencer and Gillen and the indigenous communities there.
Darren:
Josh, I was just thinking that the actual methodology for recording it, adds to your feelings about the recording. The fact that you hear the circular rotation of that cylinder and the clunk, clunk, clunk immediately makes you go, “Well, this is really old.” And you start to imagine trying to record that in central Australia with a wax-based cylinder, in potentially 30-plus degree heat.
Josh:
AT&T, actually set up the first U.S. based radio stations that were for profit. And WAAF Radio, New York was the first one that was there just for money. So, the NPR actually did a documentary about this.
So, I think that’s really interesting, that they didn’t know how to make it pay. And podcasting has just kind of figured it out.
Do you want to hear what the first ad sounded like?
Darren:
I’d love to.
Josh:
Which was (you would not be surprised), property.
Darren:
Real estate.
Josh:
Nothing’s changed.
Darren:
Well, and you say that, but it’s true. Because even for Silicon Valley, the only model that they could come up with, to commercialize a customer’s attention is more advertising. It’s just that they’ve overcome the time issue, because they’ve reduced it down to fractions of seconds can be bought now.
What we are really doing now, and why the whole industry conversation is now around engagement, is because we’ve realized that there’s unlimited broadcast time, but there’s limited engagement time. And that’s what we are competing for. And this is why content that goes around the ads has become so important, because the cost is them giving up time, you have to pay them by giving them something rewarding.
Josh:
That’s right. And so, they’re also cheats to connect with that listener, in a way they don’t have to think about it. You can play a couple little sounds, and instantly represent your brand. So, this is the NBC Chimes in 1933.
ABC Radio, news theme, being recorded from 1943, kind of sounds the same.
Darren:
It reminds me of the 7:00 PM news at home. And it was like literally, that was the sound that said, “Kids, shut up, dad wants to watch the news.”
Josh:
I still hear the variation on that theme, Triple J’s news, one is a variation, which is pretty cool.
Darren:
I was going to say that J’s, they play with that to actually make it contemporary.
Josh:
And at that time, War of the Worlds changed people’s perception of what was possible, because of the first radio play that had such a scary, serious topic. But they had that first half of the show, was done in news reel form. So, if you miss the opening saying, “This is a play …” which is what happened, because it was always scheduled, you would think it was real.
Darren:
Well, the whole thing about soap opera came from radio plays. It was the Unilevers of the world who realized that it wasn’t just enough to have your ads sitting around the content, to actually be able to put it into the content itself.
Josh:
That’s a great environment for brands to play, particularly FMCG, just pay for great shows and then have a great ad in the middle. But one of the things that I loved in all my research was that, I didn’t know that Graham Kennedy was involved in the establishment of 2DAY FM.
Darren:
I didn’t know that either.
Josh:
Graham Kennedy and John Laws. Now, I kind of get why Australian radio was so much fun in the eighties, in the commercial space, because you had funny people and fun people getting — and I think radio and audio has always been the domain of fun people.
Darren:
And I’d say one of the great things about Graham Kennedy, he had courage. He would constantly push the boundaries. I think that’s one of the things that leads to great audio and great performances, is the courage to push boundaries.
My father used to recall, Graham Kennedy used to do live TV ads on his show in Melbourne Tonight, for Raoul Merton shoes. And the line he came up with; “If your feet are hurting, you’re wearing Raoul Merton.”
Now, that brand just walked out of the store, because everyone remembered it. He discovered that it’s better to be memorable, than to try and push a sales message.
Josh:
In that era though, there weren’t as many choices of places to go, right?
Darren:
No, that’s true.
Josh:
So, big brand advertising actually tried to be big. There wasn’t so much data and there probably wasn’t so many focus groups.
Darren:
There’s always been clutter. From the very earliest radio ads, there was clutter. And you can be part of the wallpaper or you could stand out, and there’s a couple of ways of standing out. One’s pushing boundaries, creatively.
The other is just distinctive discipline of consistency. Like every time someone hears that piece of audio, it just reinforces, that you start to know who the brand is before you’ve even heard the message.
So, there’s ways of cutting through the clutter. Some are safe, some are risky. There’s opportunities around audio, but it’s mainly focusing on the media opportunities, the podcasting. And marketers have more choices than ever before.
And there’s two factors that are at work here. One is, that they have limited resources, either time, money or people to do everything. But there’s always that fear of missing out.
Professor Byron Sharp, talks about how brands grow. He talks about mental availability. And I think that’ll be really interesting to explore that here, when we’re talking about brands.
Josh:
The audio is just getting so much better, so much more personal. There are so many songs on Spotify and Apple and audio books are incredible now. The Malcolm Gladwell, Paul Simon audio book, which is a real standout for me.
The money’s going there now, because brands are recognizing it, production companies, television networks. Anyone who’s making, really understands a great way to find stories, because you can find out what works for an audience, and the techs now are getting there and it’s at its moment.
Darren:
From a content creation point of view, it’s come a long way. There are literally entertainment brands that stand alone on being purely audio. There’s a convenience about it.
During COVID, with the lockdowns, there was a report about podcasts listening had dropped, because people had got out of the habit of when they were commuting, that was their time to just lose themselves in that favorite podcast.
And I think, that’s really the opportunity that a lot of marketers are not actually understanding, that there’s a huge opportunity to create content that people actually want. That you can really own someone by their ears.
Josh:
There’s external marketing and then there’s internal marketing. And while we are talking about audio in the context of marketing, we are also talking about communication and I think communicating with people via sound.
Part of the thing I love about audio is TikTok and Instagram and Facebook, like a lot of those platforms, as informative as they are and fun, they’re often distracting.
Whereas audio can be enhancing, when you’re going for a run or when you’re doing the laundry, listening to something can really make it a lot better as a shared or a personal experience.
Darren:
It’s interesting, because the TikTok world and all the other social media platforms have picked up on it. They’ve got all good … they’re short versions. And people go, “Well that’s because we don’t have the attention span.”
And I think they’re actually wrong. The fact that we binge Netflix, that’s why I think the short form is distracting. It’s almost like I’m trying to distract you from doing anything more meaningful. I’m filling in time.
Whereas people, when they commit to listening to a podcast or watching a TV show or a movie, that’s the most valuable thing they’ve actually given you, is their time to do that.
You asked me earlier about thoughts on audio. It’s interesting how I think there’s — somewhere along the line, the industry thought to be creative, you had to be constantly different. The danger with that is that you end up sacrificing building that awareness in people’s minds.
There’s that term, the earworm, that works really well, if you’re consistent about it. But if you’re constantly reinventing the earworm, then people are going to never put it all together.
Josh:
And I love earworms and there’ll never be enough, in my opinion. If I go back to jingles, that was like, “Why does a jingle work, even if I don’t know what it is?” 1989.
Darren:
That’s a Brady jingle.
Josh:
I love Melbourne’s obsession, but like who’s it for?
Darren:
I’d say it has to be the AFL or VFL.
Josh:
3-8 game. That’s how you really know.
Darren:
So, I’ve worked a lot with Mike Brady when I was working as a writer. I was lucky enough to get to rerecord the Hard Yakka.
Josh:
Oh, really?
Darren:
And ended up working with Mike and Doug Brady.
Josh:
Wow.
Darren:
And Doug had come off the back of doing Whispering Jack, as the engineer. And they put in there all these things like Gregorian chants backwards, just layers of complex audio and totally rerecorded their whole track again. It was just phenomenal.
Josh:
But they tap into so much emotion so quickly.
Darren:
Moments like these, you need mini tears. Okay. So, let’s get to something that’s a bit more producty.
Darren:
There’s a saying in advertising, “If it’s too stupid to say, sing it.”
And I think that’s really derogatory, because all of these jingles and the lyrics stand up in their own right. What’s the purpose of advertising if not to create mental availability, to have people have your brand at top of mind when they’re making purchase decision?
Like the Mr. Sheen, I remember my mother would buy Mr. Sheen, even though it costs more than the no name brand, because it’s the thing that came to mind.
Josh:
And Louie the Fly?
Darren:
Yeah.
Josh:
I don’t remember every single word of it, but I-
Darren:
Oh, I do. “I’m Louie the Fly, I’m Louie the Fly, straight from rubbish tip to you. Spreading disease with the greatest of ease, straight from rubbish tip to you.”
Josh:
Thank you, Darren. That was fantastic.
Darren:
But that’s what I’m saying, is that, imagine being able to own a part of someone’s memory, part of their brain, so completely.
Josh:
If clients want ROI, it’s put something into someone’s head and then you don’t have to pay for that anymore, every time they sing it in the car or whatever. But all you have to do is just think about the great strategy to get it earworming.
So, there’s a repetition required, but there’s also like a long-term view of the brand. And I think, really understanding what the brand is will direct those choices to be made.
Darren:
And look, there’s a meme on TikTok about what TV piece or what interview is stuck in your head and getting free real estate, that’s what this is about. This is about creating real estate, going back to Byron Sharp, mental availability.
So, it’s hard to understand why this is a whole style of advertising, that is no longer sort of openly pursued. Can you name two or three recent jingles?
Josh:
No, I can’t. And I struggled. So, I went and found one to answer this question and I actually found some great examples. There was a Steggles campaign, where they made four, 60-second jingles about Steggles turkey with Spotify.
And so, this campaign was about Spotify partnering up for when people were listening to work out. So, that’s why they were a minute long. I think it’s really good. Though I didn’t know what brand it was for. I didn’t know what it was about. And there was a couple where I couldn’t even understand the lyrics. And then, about 30 seconds or 35 seconds, it just like kicks in and you’re like, “Oh, oh, I get it now.”
And so, the first time you don’t know. And then, you think about the very first time you hear a track from your favorite artist, you don’t know it, you’re not familiar with it, you don’t like it. But 15 plays later, you’re singing every single word.
And I think that that was one of the reasons why that Steggles one worked so well. I wonder if it’s because 65% of the Spotify audience is subscribed, so you’re not necessarily getting the same volume of ads the way you were.
Darren:
And that is one of the trends because of technology, is everyone’s consuming media in their own particular way. The water cooler still works occasionally, but it’s breaking down.
Josh:
So, I think for a brand who’s involved in podcasts ads, in some way, where they’re buying them or creating sponsorships or being pitched them, and you hear three of those ads in a row, at some point, you’ll see that amazing connection that the audience has with brands in podcasting drop, because there’s no variety or spice.
I’m going to quickly just play something from Gimlet Media. Because Gimlet Media was the first big production company that was independent to make a splash. And Alex Bloomberg made the StartUp Podcast. And in his very first episode-
Hear that music?
Darren:
Mmm.
Josh:
That music is the Gimlet Media ad music. So, when you heard that music, it’s an ad.
Darren:
You knew it was in an ad.
Josh:
And in the very first episode, he introduces that music to you. Now, there are very few shows that I’ve ever heard who does that. We’re going to start doing that as a business.
Darren:
It’s a great idea.
Josh:
And we are going to have different themes for each show. So, every show will have its own unique one and that’s their ad music. And then, there’ll be the Ampel ad music as well. And so, anything programmatic that goes in that we are not in charge of, won’t have that.
So, Twenty Thousand Hertz is a podcast that’s obsessed with sound. I’m sure you’ve heard that one before. And they talked about the HBO logo. Basically, HBO has got all these different music, the most amazingly composed, fantastic theme music for their brand. And it ends with the logo. And they tried to figure out should they or should they not change it.
And so, they went on a deep dive, but it was presented by Planet Money, which is one of my favorite podcasts. And the reason why, is because that particular podcast can kind of be anything. So, long as it’s about money in some way, then it can be there. And the format is one person finds out a story and tells it to someone else, and they use great music and they use great branding.
Darren:
Beautiful.
Josh:
That makes perfect sense for that brand. I was thinking about great brands and their audio logos and how do they come up with them and what’s the process. Usually, this is where me or Michelle, would say the exact same thing pretty much every time, which is Netflix is “Tudum.”
But then, I was thinking there was a whole bunch of other brand logos that we hear and we don’t really think about how good they are.
What a logo. I couldn’t believe how good that was. I was like, “Totally.” It sounds like a commentator, it’s so good.
And then, I went … tudum’s so magical and the original Disney one. So, here are a few of the streaming ones and let’s see if you can figure out who these are.
Any idea?
Darren:
No.
Josh:
Neither, YouTube Originals.
Darren:
God, that film. Oh-
Josh:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’ve seen that. You’ve heard it.
Darren:
Yeah. But I can’t connect it.
Josh:
Amazon Original.
Darren:
They’re all very similar.
Josh:
That was Disney.
Darren:
Oh, was it?
Josh:
Where’s … like what they could-
Darren:
Oh, like Tinker Bell or?
Josh:
It’s a small world after all. Like they could have used so many, but …
Max Original, can you hear the connection to the-
Darren:
Yeah.
Josh:
To the HBO one though?
Darren:
Yeah. They’ve fallen into the trap of they’re all using that sustained note …
Josh:
And they’re falling into the trap of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which is, we’re not going to make any themes. Because John Williams captured our imagination with so many of the biggest themes of our time. Same with Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman, lots of themes, over scoring.
And then, there are other films and series that do the exact opposite and underdo it. Like I can’t hum you any — there’s a little bit from Avengers, maybe I can hum you, but I’m struggling.
But the thing that I loved about Netflix one, they used the Netflix logo in two distinct ways, and then suddenly there was a third; tudum, T-U-D-U-M is now onomatopoeia. They use it as the name of their blog.
Darren:
Like tudum.
Josh:
Tudum. But then, in Italy, they used it as part of their advertising. So, this is a video and the phone’s ringing in the middle of a train station.
Darren:
Brilliant.
Josh:
Absolutely brilliant. So, it can come from that moment, but it can come from the opposite moment as well, which is you’ve found a piece of music and now, you want to bring that piece of music into your logo forever. Like you love it so much.
Darren:
Yep.
Josh:
But then here are the variations on a theme.
Josh:
And so, to the people at Toyota who stopped using, da-na-na-na-na.
Darren:
Yeah.
Josh:
Do me a favor, please use it again. I love that theme.
Darren:
And look, the fact that it got to the point, when they launched it, it had the words, “Oh, what a feeling.” And then they got to the point where they could just drop it and use the music and they would integrate it into, if they had a music track that integrated into that style.
And I think the big problem is, that the marketers and the agency get bored. The consumer never gets bored, because it just reinforces and reinforces. And the opportunity is to actually take that and make it the idea.
Josh:
You can iterate. There’s so many ways to iterate that music, that you should never get bored with it. But building a music library, so if you do get a little bit bored, you go, “Well, let’s just use this track.”
I used to work at Umbrella Entertainment, which is a film distribution company, and there were eight different varieties of logos. And Madman entertainment do the same thing as well, where they use a comedy logo for a comedy film and a horror of one for a horror film. And you can do that as a brand because you might have different messages, different products.
So, one of the things that I thought about, I’m not sensing that there’s a common request from a brand to create a suite of music, based on the business and their personality and who they are.
Darren:
It’s not happening. And there are so many opportunities with technology and with channels and things, to actually extend these brand assets and how to extend them into different channels, different mediums, different environments.
This idea that audio branding like all branding has to be consistent collar and cuff is actually wrong, because the consumer is smarter. As long as you’ve got enough resource to get a good level of exposure, you’ve got to establish it first, and then play with it.
Josh:
And you’ve got to commit to it for a while as well.
Darren:
Yeah.
Josh:
It comes with a tiny level of risk. You’re creating an asset that is representative of your brand. So, the process that I go when I’m doing this, is really just to ask for two things. One is a great brief, and two is patience, because it takes a lot longer than we always want it to take.
And also, we have to make mistakes. And part of what we do is go, “Oh no, that’s not working.” We’re composing something, we’re creating something from scratch. It’s not always the first idea, sometimes it is.
Darren:
Well, a technique I use to present creative, is to actually say to the client, “I’m going to play this for you three times.”
Josh:
That’s good.
Darren:
Because the first time they’re hearing it, it’s their gut reaction. They like it, they won’t like it, whatever. The second time, it’s becoming familiar. By the third time, if they still don’t like it, by the third time, there’s something visceral that they could probably articulate by that stage.
Josh:
Yeah. And gut reaction is usually to criticize something. Like our first reaction is to-
Darren:
Fear.
Josh:
Yeah, exactly. We’re scared of what it is, so we want to say something; “I don’t like it.” I recently did one for Digital Skills Organization. And so, this is the logo that we created.
The first response was, “We’re not sure if the female voiceover works.” And I said, “Of course, you know what? You don’t have to figure it out. We’ll just do a male one as well,” because there will be a moment where a male voiceover is appropriate. And so, you actually need both.
So, let’s not limit it. We use that synth track in some of the work that we are doing with them at the moment. I haven’t found any use for that piano track just yet. They’re two different tracks. But they’re part of the library of music.
Darren:
Yeah. So, what you’re talking about is creating a sort of folder of assets that can be then applied, but at the very core of it is the sort of essence of the brand as a piece of audio.
Josh:
Yeah, that’s right. And to try and make sure that you’re taking the essence of the business, of the people, of the culture, of the motion, of the mission. And it all sounds esoteric, but actually, we’re moving into an age where a lot of businesses are thinking about their social responsibility and their being for a purpose. And so, I think you would want to consider that in the brand.
I was thinking about your brand and you really like this track, which is called quirky dealings. I’ve got to be honest with you, I like it too. And I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to convince you to not use it. And I never got to a good enough answer why you shouldn’t be using it.
But this music is a little bit off kilter. It’s a little bit off. It’s tempo sort of changes up and down. It goes off key a bit. Used a slightly interesting instrument, but it also makes me think of a television show called Huff, which was on Showtime in the late nineties, with Hank Azaria as a psychiatrist, who was getting to the cause of everyone else’s problems.
Darren:
But not his own.
Josh:
But not his own. And I wondered, I don’t know if you’ve ever thought about that connection or you just liked the music?
Darren:
No. Look it was actually a film director, Phil Rich from 2Feet Films, who I’ve known for decades. And he said, “You know, we need a piece of music for this.” And as soon as he played it, I went, “I love it.”
And what I love about it, is the fact that it is eclectic. It has that sort of unpredictability about it. I’m a big fan of jazz and it just felt right for me. And it is quite personal. I’ve got a company that I founded, and even though it’s grown beyond just being me, I still see the influence my personality, my thinking, my approach has on the entire company.
Josh:
And you told me about the way in which you seek inspiration for the business and as part of the culture and you have different archetypes.
Darren:
Yeah. So, instead of values, because people end up choosing words like honesty and integrity, well, why wouldn’t you not be that? But we chose archetypes, which is the rebel, the creator, and the sage. And there’s distinct reasons for each of those being there, in some ways strong in their own right. But when you bring the three together makes a really powerful proposition.
Josh:
It does. And it made it very easy to talk to you about the music suite that I wanted to put together for you, as a way for you to not have to always use the same track. So, quirky dealings is that track that you’ve licensed.
I went to Melodie, which is an Australian music library that works closely with a lot of composers, tech based startup. And they’re really clever. We use their library quite a bit. And so, I asked them for some assistance to see what I could find that might sound a bit connected. The first one I want to … so, for your sage, you told me that it was Albert Einstein.
Darren:
Yep. And Marie Curie.
Josh:
Right. So, I said to you that, they came from Europe, first half of the 20th century, but that they were both together in Young Einstein. And that’s a great era of Australian music. It was one of those 10 BA films that put Australian cinema on the map.
And I thought, “Oh, I need to go and find an indigenous composition that had a bit of vibe about it, that made me think of a different time.” So, it’s a by a composer called James Henry.
Darren:
Love it. It’s good.
Josh:
So, there’s a lot happening on the keyboards.
Darren:
The keyboard’s great.
Josh:
But as an Australian company that’s gone overseas, that’s gone to the world, I felt like it has that Australianist to it, with indigenous music. But-
Darren:
It fuses that with the instruments, the keyboard and the other instruments really well.
Josh:
Yeah. And I’m told James is clearly a very creative guy who does like bringing different worlds of music together, but I also like that he brings the horns and the brass to it as well.
Darren:
Yeah.
Josh:
So, I thought that was one that I wanted to put on the list. Then we talked about the rebel.
Darren:
Yeah.
Josh:
And both of us, I think immediately thought of guitar. Heavy guitar.
Darren:
Well, because the rebel’s about having the courage to destroy what doesn’t work. And so, it has that sort of energy and action about it.
Josh:
That the rebels also march to their own beat. And we talked about that, and you told me about how your company’s about being … it’s a bit different. It has a real philosophy. And I thought, “Well, actually you are the rebel. That’s why you started this. And I’m the rebel, I guess.” Because you’ve got to be a bit rebellious to start your own business and to break a mold that might have been set for you.
Darren:
Yeah. It’s about challenging convention, people will say, “Oh, we’re setting up an agency and we’re going to be different.” And then you see them two or three years later and they’ve just exactly the same as everyone else, because they’ve fallen into the trap of just following the wheel rut.
Josh:
When Nova started, their slogan was, Sounds Different. The rebels, Steve Jobs.
Darren:
Yep. And Hedy Lamarr. She was a Hollywood screen star, but she had a very strong scientific and engineering capability. And she came up with the alternation of wave forms as a way of creating secure transmission. Her invention is the basis of Wi-Fi and Bluetooth and a lot of the technology that we have today with the secure transmission of information.
Josh:
Like a pretty impressive person. But like then you think of the obsession that was Steve Jobs and the future vision.
Darren:
Yeah. They’re constantly looking at how things can be different.
Josh:
And so, I took that and went to jazz instead of hard rock. And also, I wanted to give it a little bit more flavor, because I felt like Hedy Lamarr’s world would’ve been, I don’t know, a little bit … I don’t know if it was — hedonistic is the wrong word, but just full of fun and frivoling, so …
What I did was, is like I’ve made three different logos. One from quirky dealings (TrinityP3) and two others from the other new music. I’ve tried to do is, insert your company name into the middle of it.
And so, I was wondering if you wanted to think about a tagline, because improving marketing came up a bit. It might not need a tagline.
Darren:
No. I think just leave it as, “TrinityP3.”
Josh:
And part of me doesn’t know if I should use one of the new tracks or just stick with quirky dealers, because you do like that. It’s so representative of your company. I keep going back to that HBO thing, you don’t need to change something.
Darren:
Okay. Josh, I love the first one. I love quirky dealings, okay?
Josh:
Okay.
Darren:
I get what you were trying to show. And when I heard the three of them, to show — I still felt like, well quirky dealings is me and that means it’s the company. Sometimes change for the sake of change is no good.
Josh:
I don’t think you should change it. I think you need other music for other circumstances-
Darren:
Yeah, I’m quirky and I’m dealing.
Josh:
And then obviously, so we’re working still on the creator song. But I’ve got like 15 here, I could play that I’m liking. But what I didn’t want to do, and you can really hear it, is I didn’t want to go to something standard.
I wanted something that marries the critical thinking that your business does on behalf of other people, and says, “We are thinkers, we are doers, we are different.”
Darren:
Yeah, and we are challenging. That’s the other thing, is that I think our clients engage us, because they want that independence. We’re not selling them anything other than a new way of seeing and solving problems that they’ve traditionally had.
Josh, they’re great. Seriously, it’s already moved it forward. I love it.
Josh, it’s been terrific going down memory lane for me and really reinforced for me how important audio is, in the way we engage and communicate with each other.
I’m looking forward to the second and third episode, because second episode, we’re going to be looking around podcasting. There is a lot of opportunity there. And Mich is going to take us through the things that need to be considered if brands are really serious about making podcasting work to engage customers.
And then in the third episode, we’re going to be looking deeper into the numbers behind the industry and really getting the insights on how well it’s working and what’s working, and what isn’t, so that we can really start to think about the opportunities that they may be missing.
So, look, I want to thank you. It’s been a terrific conversation today and I always have a question to ask at the end of it; and that is, Josh, if you weren’t doing this, what would you be doing?
