Managing Marketing: Marketing To Fill The National Blood Supply

Jude Leon Podcast

Jude Leon is Head of Integrated Marketing at Australian Red Cross Lifeblood – charged with driving marketing to ensure that, amongst other things, national blood stocks are maintained. Jude and David discuss the importance of the organisation, brand marketing in an NFP environment, the complexity of marketing ‘blood donation’ through the funnel, the effect of COVID on blood donation, and working in purpose and passion-driven environments.

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Okay, welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.

And today, I’m sitting down with Jude Leon, who is the Head of Integrated Marketing Communications at Australian Red Cross Lifeblood. Jude is charged with developing marketing programs that help drive consumer blood donation in order to maintain the national blood supply.

And to be honest, I can’t think of many more important marketing jobs than that, Jude, if I’m honest with you. So, I’m very pleased to have finally been able to find the time to have you on the podcast. So, welcome, Jude, and thank you very much for joining me.


Hey David, thank you so much for inviting me along.


You’re more than welcome. So, let’s talk … because you’ve, like many people I interview on this podcast, you have a really interesting background, covering a lot of corporate experience and a lot of — I’m going to call it not-for-profit experience with Lifeblood.

You’ve worked in a number of categories, including retail, energy, finance, and now, of course, you’re with Lifeblood. Culturally and operationally, what are the similarities and differences you’ve found and how have you been able to apply your corporate experience to the work you’re doing now?


It’s a really interesting question and I get asked this quite a lot by different people. I think sometimes the perception around not-for-profit is that it’s a very huggy, warm, easy-going, loose environment that every time someone makes a blood donation, a bell rings and we leap up and hug each other. And maybe that was my perception-


Are you going to destroy my illusions now because that’s exactly what I thought!


That was possibly my perception before I started working at Lifeblood. I think however, Lifeblood is the first and only not-for-profit I’ve worked for. I’ve been with Lifeblood almost five years, which is the longest I’ve been in any job. So, that’s testament probably to what a great brand and organization it is.

And I think that was probably my perception before I went to Lifeblood. And really, I was very surprised when I got there at the sheer complexity of the organization. I think first and foremost, Lifeblood has an incredibly complex supply chain when it comes to blood management.

And before I’d worked there, like many people, I probably thought of it colloquially in my head as a blood bank and this idea that people donate blood and I didn’t really know what happened to it and how long it lasted and how it was used, and how it all worked.

But blood donation, whole blood only lasts 42 days. And we’re responsible for the safe and secure supply of blood and blood products all around Australia. And that creates incredibly complex supply chain model, where we’re every day, in our marketing team, looking at the number of appointments, collections, new donors coming in, in each state, in each center, making sure this whole big machine is working smoothly.

So, what I would say is ultimately, it’s probably one of the most complex organizations I’ve ever worked for. And that includes things like banking and energy, which I thought was the most confusing and complex organization, but Lifeblood is really complex.

So, I think really, I suppose what I’ve learned from corporate experience is, it translates incredibly well over into not-for-profit. It’s not a simple business. So, I think we at Lifeblood have a marketing team with people from all sorts of industries; a lot of people who’ve worked in services and those skills translate really well across, because we need to manage a lot of complexity in the business, we have brand building challenges to contend with all of the time.

So, I actually don’t think it’s that much different at the end of the day. You know, the one thing that’s different, I suppose, is the purpose we have and that’s the lovely difference. Much better barbecue conversations for me than when I was working for energy and banks.


I want to come and talk about that in a minute, actually. But picking up on one of the things you said as you were talking there about complexity, I mean, the thing that crossed my mind is that also, relative to other not-for-profits, you have a very complex or a very challenging transaction.

I mean, giving blood is very different from giving money and from a marketing point of view, your lower funnel (for want of a better term) — your lower funnel activity, you mentioned sort of looking at the appointments every day, that must place a lot of pressure on the marketing team, I guess, that layer as well.


Yeah, absolutely. We’re asking for something very specific and yes, whilst it’s giving in general, we’re not asking for people’s money, we’re asking for their time and we’re asking for them to donate their blood, which is a very physical and personal act for people.

So, yeah, I mean, the great thing is we don’t have competitors. No one else in Australia collects blood, so we often get asked, “Well, who are your competitors?” And we do look at what other charities and not-for-profits are doing, but ultimately, our competitors are time.


Share of time, right?


Exactly, time, because it’s a commitment to go and … not that it takes very long. I’ll say it’s not a very big commitment but it’s an hour or so out of someone’s day. And it’s also a physical commitment.

So, the barriers that we really need to overcome are people’s hesitation, anxiety, and nervousness around that. So, absolutely, it’s something we think about all the time. All marketers, I think, think about behavior change and what the drivers are and what the barriers are for people.

Obviously, for us, some of the big barriers are fear of needles — not something we can overcome with everyone. That general anxiety around what’s going to happen to me. I think another big barrier is just the time it takes getting to the center. So, we’re always looking for ways to try and motivate people to think about it more.

And certainly, in marketing, we work very closely with our donor center staff as well. And that for us, as a Lifeblood brand is very important, the experience that the donors are having in the center, because like, again, with any business, you can have the best marketing, the best ads, the best digital experience in the world. But if the experience someone has in the center isn’t great, then, well, your marketing is really no good because that’s the experience people are going to take away with them.

So, I think like many businesses, we’re really trying to think about that holistic customer experience. So, marketing isn’t just the engine that gets people into the center. We need to work holistically and collaboratively with our donor center staff to make that a unified and wonderful experience for people.


Yeah. And I mean, it has to work on all sorts of levels for sure. So, how does that translate into the day-to-day with your donor centers? There must be a sort of joint input, I guess, almost into local area and in-store for want of a better word, experience. I mean, it’s really, really important.


Yeah, we’re connected in lots of different ways in lots of different projects. But I think we talked about purpose earlier and that’s probably something that will keep coming up in our conversation because it’s really important to all of us at Lifeblood.

And I think the one thing that unifies us is the donor and trying to view everything through the lens of the donor: be it how they’re receiving messages from us through our marketing channels, what sort of experience they’re having, trying to make their appointment, to check their stats through our digital channels, through to being in the donor center and the experience they have there.

So, we’ve done lots of user journeys like many organizations have. And I think we are getting better at an organization at stitching that together cross-functionally. But ultimately, everything has to be through the perspective of the donor and to benefit them to solve any problems or challenges they may have to make things better and easier for them. And I think as an organization, we’re very unified on that purpose.


And look, I love the idea that you’ve put that it’s just like the purpose is the one thing that separate … from your previous experience as well, the purpose and the passion. As a disclaimer, I’ve worked on more than one project with you over the past 12 months and that’s the one thing that struck me about you and your team, is that sheer level of commitment to the cause, and even relative to other non-for-profits that I’ve worked with, to be honest.

You’ve talked about the donor unifying you, but what effects does that level of passion have on the way you assess and make decisions relating to marketing? You know, how you’re spending that money — it’s obviously very, very critical to get that right.


Well, yeah, absolutely. We’re not funded by donations, we’re government-funded. I mean, David, honestly, this might sound a bit trite, but I like to think anywhere I’ve worked, I stop and think if this was my money, would I spend it like this?

So, that’s something I try and apply to every place I’ve ever worked, sometimes with different degrees of success. But certainly, at Lifeblood, I think the reality is we have some reasonable budgets, but we certainly don’t have the sort of budgets that big corporates would have.

So, we talk about it as we have to think our ways out of problems rather than spend our ways out of problems. I mean, in simple terms if brand awareness is a problem for you and you are a big corporate, you can easily solve that by just putting a ton of money into offline media and that will fix it for you.

We have to be really practical and careful with how we invest our money. So, that’s really first and foremost for us. And I think we have to really think again about, are we getting the right message to the right people at the right time. We really need to make our dollars count, I suppose.

And again, targets for us are very, very front and center, more so probably again than any industry I’ve ever worked in. We need to bring in around a hundred thousand new donors every year to keep our panel at a level that it needs to be to support supply needs.

So, getting a hundred thousand new people every year to become a blood donor is quite hard. It’s around 2000 every week. That’s a lot of people really when you think about what we’re asking them to do. So, I think we’re thinking all the time about what’s going to motivate people, which channels are right, how can we get the best value for things?

So, we need to make sure we’re spending our money well to get the best results. I mean, I guess that’s like any brand. But for us, the consequence is if we don’t get it right-


The stakes are high. That’s kind of what I was getting at with the previous question.


If we don’t get it right, the stakes are really high.


And there’s no disrespect to any corporate. Of course, stakes are always high and you quite rightly said, “Well, hang on, I always think about the money.” And corporate stakes are high and there’re shareholders involved and everything else, but we’re talking about the national blood supply. And that is actually … the stakes are higher, let’s be honest. And I think it plays into a lot of what you’ve just said.


Look, absolutely. And I think many times over the years, I’ve joked like probably lots of marketers have … where you have one of those days where it’s eight o’clock at night and things aren’t working and you know you’re not going to fix something. And you just say, “You know what, I think we just need to down tools and go to the pub, because it’s not like we’re saving babies here.”

But then, all of a sudden, you find yourself working for an organization and you think, “Well, actually, we are actually saving babies literally.” So, I think that’s really front and center for people. And all jobs are jobs and they’re hard work and people put a lot of time into them. I think particularly, during the lockdown times, most of us were based in Melbourne, so all of us were in the longest lockdown in the world, and that took its toll on people in many different ways.

But I think for me, and for many people at Lifeblood, one of the things that really kept us focused and centered was our purpose, knowing that the work we were doing was really important and it is genuinely helping people.

And like in many organizations, you go and work in the store for a bit or you call-jack, you see how the frontline workers are doing things. At Lifeblood, where possible — and not everyone who works at Lifeblood can donate blood or wants to donate blood, but many of us do. And it’s an amazing thing to be able to go into the center and donate and see the work they do. It’s a terrific reminder.

And we hear so many stories of recipient stories, just how blood donation, blood products has really not only saved their life, but transformed their lives, and incredible donor stories. We have some donors who’ve made over 700 donations across their lifetime. It’s phenomenal.

The commitment we have from our donors is never-ending inspiration for us, I think. We have the easy job in a way, we’re just there to inspire people and try and make it easy for them. But really, our donors are a constant source of motivation to us. So, it sounds a bit naff maybe, but it really is genuinely a privilege to work for a place like this.


Well, I mean, that’s some great insights there and I want to take some of what you’ve just said particularly about the targets that you have to hit every week, and also, what you’ve also just said about what you want to do in inspiring people, the donor stories, and some of that. And I want to apply that to thinking about brand and the role of brand, marketing and brand advertising in NFPs, but particularly in Lifeblood.

I’m quite intrigued by the role of brand in this category. Because if we think … I mean, it’s a simple definition of brand as being sort of an intangible set of values held in the mind of the consumer, which provides perceptions and inspires action over the shorter or longer terms, it feels like I mean, brand communications are just as valid in your sector, and for Lifeblood as anywhere else.

But there’s massive tactical need to get donations. You’ve got to look at that from a budgetary point of view, how do you get that balance right. How do you reconcile the longer term and the shorter term at Lifeblood?


The whole notion of the long and the short of it is something that we’ve been thinking about for the last couple of years and we’re really trying to put that into action. I think probably for the last couple of years, when it comes to blood donation, we’ve been very short-term focused. We’re always in market. 365 days a year, we have marketing activity at play.

And we’ve been very focused on the ask and asking people to donate and wrapping different messages around that. But ultimately, I think what we’ve realized is we need more than that and we need to really set ourselves up in the hearts and minds of people and really show our purpose and inspire people.

And what we are talking about at a brand level when it comes to blood donation, is really trying to shift perception from us as being just about donation. So, I guess that’s pretty transactional at that level and really about trying to be a brand that’s about motivation.

So, it’s a challenge for us because we have these supply chain needs, we’ve got a fixed amount of money, and we know we need to generate X number of new donors every week, X number of appointments. It’s a big machine to keep running. So, we need to move money over into upper funnel, which is less immediate and less tangible in its benefits.

But I think increasingly, as an organization, we’re really seeing the importance of that and we are trying to build storytelling around that internally to show that it’s not a slot machine. Marketing is not a slot machine and we can’t just keep putting dollars in and expecting a new donor to just spit out the other end without some form of diminishing returns kicking in.

So, that investment in the biggest storytelling, in being more emotional, in really trying to establish who we are as a brand and what we stand for is critical for us.


So, at the moment, there is a brand campaign, which I’ve just seen today. By the time this gets published, it will have launched, Jude. So, I feel comfortable talking about it. It’s already going to be on air by the time this goes out.

But I think it’s a beautiful piece of communication and we might as well give it a plug.


Yeah, sure.


Why not? Just top line the thought process — given what you just said, top line the thought process that went into building that piece of communication.


So, the creative platform is called the Lifeblood of Australia. One of the key pieces of strategic thinking behind that was incorporating our brand name, Lifeblood, into that campaign, which might sound really straightforward.

But we rebranded three years ago, so we went from being the Red Cross Blood Service to Red Cross Lifeblood or Lifeblood as we call ourselves. And that was a two-year process for us to get there. And as you can imagine, changing your brand name takes a lot of work internally, and internally, externally with all the markets.

And it wasn’t just because we thought it was a nicer name. It was really a strategic piece of work to think about who we want to be seen as in the future. And most people know Lifeblood for blood donation, but we’re actually involved in many other things, including breast milk donation, organ transplant, microbiomes, lots of amazing, amazing work.

But of course, blood donation is the core of what we do. So, the Lifeblood of Australia platform initially is going to be very focused on blood donation. One thing we wanted was to get our brand name front and center because with a change in brand name comes a decrease in awareness. So, we want that name to be front and center for people.

So, building that into all of our comms is really important. I think strategically when we’re talking about blood donation, again, I’ve mentioned that we want to move from donation to motivation. So, in this platform, what we’re trying to do is really tap into this idea that whilst blood donation is an act carried out by an individual, people are really motivated by their groups, their communities, their families, their teams.

So, this is what we’re trying to show across this platform. And what we are hoping over the course of the year is that we can really motivate people to come together and donate as groups to become a leader in their communities and corral people to become blood donors, because we’re actually looking at trying to grow our panel more significantly than we have ever over the next 12 months. And really, one of the key ways we think we’ll do that is by tapping into groups.


Well, for anyone who hasn’t seen it, who’s listening to this, please do look it up, because it is a beautiful piece of communication and very thick threads of what Jude’s just been talking about running through it, and very motivational.


Yeah, great. And we really wanted a warmth and a passion to come through in that blood donation has often been shown as people think about needles in arms and of course, that’s part of it. That’s what happens.

But that’s a tiny bit of it. It’s just a tiny little prick, as we say. Takes no time at all. But the warm glow that people get from being a blood donor is something that we wanted to show and it’s the “me” and it’s the “we.”

It’s the great feeling you get as an individual, but it’s also the feeling you get of being part of something bigger. You’re part of a community of amazing people who give up their time to donate their blood throughout the year. So, our blood donors are the Lifeblood of Australia as well.

And we really wanted to show the faces of different donors across Australia and that our donors are all ages, all types of people. It’s a very diverse group of people. So, I think, and hope that comes across strongly in our films.


It does indeed. And hopefully, that group will become more diverse again, it’s worth mentioning here. I did see the other day that people like me, in other words, British-born people who have previously because of … well, mad cow disease-


Mad cows.


Is the colloquial name, but because of the risk of that, have not been able to get blood until now. That is soon to become a possibility I think, in Australia.


Absolutely. So, it’s imminent, so it should be in the next month or so that we’ll be able to accept appointments from mad cows as we call them colloquially, but that’s people who have lived in Britain for over six months, I think between 1980 and 1996. So, it excluded a huge number of people. And we are very, very happy that that ban has been lifted.

We don’t make those decisions ourselves. We work with the TGA, the therapeutic goods administration. So, it’s a massive piece of news for us. And we are hoping to be able to welcome many, many Brits like you David, soon.


Yep, indeed, many mad cows.


If you need me to come and hold your hand for your first donation, I’m happy to be your blood buddy.


An offer I can’t refuse. We’re getting off topic. So, that’s all really fascinating. I mean, really, really great insights. So, thank you for that.

I do want to change gear a little bit though, and talk about PR and the reason for that is that you have PR expertise as well in your past, and I’m keen to get … and we’re not necessarily talking about Lifeblood here. We’re just talking more generally.

Given that you’ve done those roles, I think one of the most ironic things in this industry — and correct me where you disagree or where I’m wrong here. But my perspective on it, my experience has been that PR in terms of its role in marketing does suffer a bit of an image problem sometimes. And I find it relatively rare that PR is truly integrated with other parts of marketing teams, whether it be structurally, strategically or across agency rosters.

Am I right? Or what do you think about that? And if I am sort of on the right path with that, should there be more integration across discipline?


I tend to agree that it’s often not very well-integrated. And I think maybe that’s the perception that both PR and marketing have of each other. And yes, as you mentioned, I’ve worked in both. I started my career in PR. I literally didn’t know what PR was, but I got invited to be a publicist, and I worked out really quickly.

And over the years, I’ve dipped in and out of marketing and PR roles. Although in saying that really for the last decade, I’ve been very, very focused on marketing-based roles. I really realized that people struggled with the relationship between the two. When I moved to Melbourne and I was talking to lots of recruiters and they were asking me questions like, “Well, you’ve worked in PR and you’ve worked in marketing, so which one are you?”

And I always found it a bit odd. I guess I felt like I was bilingual or something, but they were seen as these two different languages. And for me, really, they’re part of the whole mix. It’s just a different angle and approach for it.

I think for me, thinking about PR, I like to think that the fact I’ve worked in PR makes me better at working with PR people in my roles and potentially some of the traps marketers fall into is thinking we’ve got a new campaign coming up, PR, how can you PR our campaign? And of course, PR people will say an ad is not a PR campaign.

So, I think what I always try and do is involve our PR colleagues as early as possible, and really get to the heart of what the story is we’re trying to tell. And we will often say it doesn’t need to be matching luggage, but there’s often a kernel of the story that we can pull out. And I think my role is to work with the PR team to think about how we can amplify that story best across their channels. That it’s all part of the same mix. I’m often a bit baffled by why people struggle to see that.


I mean, what I pull out of that is that phrase, it doesn’t have to be matching luggage. I mean, does it come from defensiveness? Is it a bit of sort of territorial about the idea has to be coming from the one place and never the two shall meet? It’s felt like that to me in the past when I’ve worked across streams like this, but I don’t know what you think.


I’m not sure. I think probably the reason I don’t work in PR much these days is because I just want to talk about things all the time and say everything, and that’s not always-


Well, why do you think I’ve invited you on here? I’ve noticed that about you!


That’s not always the best trait to have in a PR role, where they’re really about being a bit more selective perhaps with what information they share. David, I don’t know, and I’m not sure that we get it a hundred percent right at Lifeblood.

But again, I think it does come back to that shared passion that we all have as an organization. And we’re very lucky that we have donor stories that we can always lean into. You know, for example, we’re launching a great ad, it does use paid talent. COVID made that a necessity for us over the last couple of months.

But we can work really closely with our PR team to find real recipients and donors to help bring those stories to life across earned channels. So, again, I don’t know if we get it right all the time, but we certainly have a lot to work with at Lifeblood.


On the right track. Well, final gear change. You mentioned the C word a minute ago – COVID, lovely C-word, COVID.

So, look, I mean, it’s getting to where I’m almost … yeah, actually obviously, a few months ago, I was asking more people about COVID, but despite the fact it’s not in the news cycle so much anymore, we’re still very much in COVID, the COVID era.

And I think it is particularly interesting from your perspective first in terms of Lifeblood, but also, of course, because of the way in which people need to donate. It’s time and it’s going somewhere and its exposure. How has Lifeblood been affected over the pandemic period? And positive or negative. I mean, how has it played out for you?


Well, I guess the headline is we’ve managed to maintain blood supply across the country for the entire time, which is phenomenal. It has been a series of challenges for the last two years that continue. And I think I would struggle to think of any business that’s not still grappling with COVID challenges.

Certainly, when large parts of Australia were in lockdown and I live in Melbourne, I was in lockdown for large tranches of 2020 and 2021 as were many other Melburnians, and many states were in and out of lockdown as well. That was a struggle for us. We had to adapt all of our comms, all of our messaging, really different obstacles, different barriers for people to overcome.

One of the big messages we needed to get out to people was that donating blood was a legitimate reason to leave the house. So, in addition to the four essential reasons, blood donation was one of those because we are an essential service.

So, during lockdown periods, we did pretty well because for those people who are listening, who remember lockdowns, I think I’ve tried to block them out. But you would look for reasons, your hour of walking around outside to walk the dog or exercise. You could legitimately go to your local blood donation center to donate.

So, when there’s nothing else to do, that’s a great thing. I think in periods where we came out of lockdown, it’s been a little bit more of a struggle because all of a sudden, people have all of these conflicting priorities and they want to get back out into the world and see their friends and start traveling and going places and thinking about things.

I would say probably the biggest challenge for us was in January this year, when Omicron really kicked off across the country, because whilst we’d been in lockdowns before, we’d never really experienced high levels of people actually having COVID. Whereas, in January, all of a sudden, it exploded. And I think it seemed to come out of nowhere for most people.

So, we had staff having to furlough. So, less staff means less people to take blood donations. We had our donors having to furlough and close contacts having to furlough. So, what that meant was lots and lots of last-minute cancellations. So, on the day or the day before the donation, and they’re really hard for us to fill at short notice.

And that is something that continues to be a real challenge for us. So, to put that into perspective, in normal times, we would need around 2.2 appointments to equal one successful collection, because we know that for a variety of reasons, people have to cancel and various things happen along the way.

That’s gone up to 2.5 because we’re seeing so many more last-minute cancellations. So, that creates a big challenge for us across the whole business. And in marketing terms, that means we need to generate more appointments. We need to put more appointments in the funnel to make sure we’re getting enough collections.

So, it’s a big challenge for us. We are talking about it all the time and it’s not a question of people’s lack of motivation or commitment, but when people get COVID, obviously, they can’t come in. But I think we’re really starting to try and understand the consumer mindset post-COVID, and the world has changed fundamentally.

So, we’re now asking ourselves whether we will ever get back to that state. Maybe this is the new normal and I think this is probably what a lot of businesses are talking about, that this is a bungee rope that just springs back to where it was that we need to take stock of the lay of the land now.

And that’s something we’re really trying to explore and people’s need to have control over their own lives to feel connected to their own communities and how we need to engage our consumers differently.


But I also think it’s very pertinent to what we’ve just been talking about: about filling the top of the funnel, about not putting yourself in a position of diminished returns, about finding people who might be new to it will actually be more motivated than less likely to cancel because they’re coming into it fresh. All of that stuff really, it makes the role of brand and top of funnel even more important.


Absolutely. And for us, it’s a balancing act of trying to get new donors in. We need those new donors and they need more nurturing along the way in early stages and maintaining our really loyal donors as well.

We talk about habit formation a lot in the context of blood donation and everyone would be familiar with theories around habit formation. And it’s usually, if you can do something repeated over a period of about three weeks, that’s enough to form a habit. Great with something like exercise, quitting smoking, those sorts of things.

Blood donation, whole blood donation, you can only do every 12 weeks. So, it’s a challenge to form a habit.


You’ve got a lot of challenges, haven’t you. You really do!


It sounds like a really hard job. So, forming a habit with our blood donors is another thing we talk about all of the time. So, maintaining connection with them in between is really important for us. So, getting that new donor in is one of the hurdles. So, that’s a big tick box when we get them in the chair and they’ve successfully donated.

Getting them to come back a second time is a really key challenge for us because we know once we get them back a second time, we’re more likely to get them back a third time. And once that happens, it becomes a little bit more habitual.


Interesting, really interesting dynamics. Well, look, I think we’re almost going to be out of time — in fact, we almost are out of time. But really fascinating commentary on such an important organization and like all joking aside, it really is. And give blood everyone, please.


Yes, thank you. You’re doing my plug for me.


I’m not supposed to do sales on this thing, but yeah, hey, look, give blood. I mean, it’s obviously incredibly important. I wish you all the best with certainly the forthcoming, but when this gets broadcasted, the brand campaign will be out there.


The now incredibly successful new campaign we’ve launched.


Yeah, exactly right. And please do see that. One more question for you, I guess: you talked earlier on about how great your barbecues are given what you do. Where’s my invite, that’s my question.


Any time you want.


Perhaps I get one after you’ve held my hand at one of the donor centers or something like that.


It’s actually a big joke in my household and through my entire life. Typically, there are photos of men at the barbecue turning the steaks and the sausages. And this has never been my experience, I’m always the one with the apron cooking the sausages.


I’m in the background with a glass of champagne.


David, if you can find yourself to Melbourne’s inner north from wherever it is in the deep south that you live, you’re very welcomed.


Alright. Okay, thanks very much, Jude. Really appreciate it.


Thank you so much, David.