In this special end-of-year episode of Managing Marketing, host Darren Woolley, Founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management Consultancy, brings together a dozen of Trinity P3’s subject matter experts to discuss the biggest issues and opportunities facing marketers and their agencies in the coming year, covering topics from pitching and data to finance, DEI, and environmental reporting.
TrinityP3 consultants include Kylie Ridler-Dutton on the challenges of pitching, Nathan Hodges on dealing with complexity, Nick Hand on defining value, Stephen Wright on the impact of AI on media, Adrian Treahy on first party data and privacy, Christopher Sewell on Net Zero Marketing, Ellie Angell on the importance of DE&I, Anton Buchner on IA – Increasing Accountability, Lydia Feely on prioritise to do something, Dr Kate Gunby on measurement, Mark Smith on the BetterPitch and Jeremy Taylor on the conflict of interest for Intermediaries.
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Hello, Darren, nice to be here – Ellie Angell Hello, Darren – Kylie Ridler-Dutton Hello, Darren – Nathan Hodges Hello, Darren – Nick Hand G’Day, Darren – Stephen Wright Hi, Darren – Adrian Treahy Thank you, Darren – Christopher Sewell G’day, Darren – Anton Buchner Thanks, Darren – Lydia Feely I’m glad to be here, Darren – Kate Gunby Hi Darren, good to see you – Jeremy Taylor Hi, thanks for having me again – Mark Smith
Transcription (Edited):
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management Consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners. If you’re enjoying the Managing Marketing podcast, please like, review or share this episode to help spread the wisdom from our guests each week.
In this episode, we’re trying something a little different. Trinity P3 is an organisation that is a collective of some amazing subject matter experts. You’re going to hear from a dozen of these experts on media, tech, data, pitching, roster management, agency fees, and more, as they share the big issues for marketers and their agencies and offer insights into what they could be doing.
Kylie Ridler-Dutton, Senior Pitch Consultant: Navigating Uncertainty and Agency Selection
Darren:
Please welcome Senior Pitch Consultant at Trinity P3, Kylie Ridler-Dutton.
Kylie:
Thank you. Hello Darren.
Darren:
What’s the topic or issue that marketers and their agencies really need to be focusing on now and why?
Kylie:
The particular issue for my role has been the sheer uncertainty with the fast-moving landscape of advertising and media. We’ve seen brand challenges and network mergers, which means staff changes everywhere. It is challenging, even for us who do this every day, to stay up with the current offers, talent, and capabilities. Because of this, many clients are talking to us about re-looking at their requirements and business needs to navigate that landscape.
Darren: I
t’s the uncertainty that’s so challenging. With so much rumour and gossip about what might be coming, it’s very hard to plan ahead.
Kylie:
That is true, and we help navigate those concerns. Rumours are a big part of it, so keeping our relationships active in the marketplace is a huge part of our role to make sure we’re giving the best advice to clients when they are going through a pitch or re-looking at their business requirements.
Darren:
We’re fortunate to have the agency register; just for Australia, there are a thousand agencies we can keep across.
Kylie:
Yes, we’ve had a really good uptake of the new agency register. Agencies are excited because it’s easy to navigate, and they won’t be held to the idea that consultants only use the top agencies. This is going to help them get their agency profiles seen by marketers directly. There’s been an explosion of new Indies hit the market in the last 24 months. It’s difficult for these new businesses without the funds for PR to get noticed by marketers. Recently, when judging awards, many marketers admitted they hadn’t heard of 60% of the really good agencies presented. The register will be a great opportunity for them to get their profile noted by marketers.
Darren:
We’re living in interesting times with the consolidation of the big network agencies and holding companies and, simultaneously, this explosion of interesting and challengingly new indie agencies. You’ve also been managing large international projects this year, looking for agencies across Asia, the Middle East, and other areas. What is it like navigating all those different markets?
Kylie:
Look, it’s challenging. It’s all about the consistency of us building relationships on a global basis. I have to stay on top of what’s happening globally, not just locally in Australia. We’ve had diverse international opportunities and tenders in both the private and government sectors. I’ve seen a real increase in PR pitches. For countries like Korea and Japan, influencer marketing and social media have blown up. Delving into fast-moving markets like Dubai and the Middle East has been really exciting.
Darren:
What’s the one piece of advice you’d give to marketers if they are going to market in the next 12 months?
Kylie:
The number one thing is you need to put the groundwork in before you actually go to market. Make sure everybody internally is aligned and that you have a brief that is really strong and descriptive, detailing not only what you need now, but what the future looks like. This is how you future-proof the business with the right capabilities and talent.
Darren:
That’s great advice, Kylie. Thanks for joining me today.
Nathan Hodges, Managing Director ANZ: The Evolving Agency Roster and Emerging Practice
Darren:
Joining me now is the Managing Director of Trinity P3 ANZ, Nathan Hodges. What do you see as the big or the hot topic or issue that marketers and their agencies should be focusing on and why?
Nathan:
It’s important to note the difference in this market now. The structure of agencies and the roster you assemble is very different now compared to 2025 or 2024. We have consultancy-based models, holding companies are shifting, there are many more Indies, and a lot of focus on in-house teams. Critically, we have “metanine models” now—small teams with access to a black book of 30 to 50 different specialists, enabled by tech, making flexibility real. The key influence here is how you now go and build a roster.
Darren:
It’s interesting because in the face of this explosion of choice, we see many marketers trying to return to a simpler, consolidated model. But the truth is, it’s not one-size-fits-all; it’s often somewhere in between consolidation and a village of subject matter specialists.
Nathan:
That’s always the case. When things get complicated, people default to “A is dead, B is the future”. I find this really interesting and exciting, as there are many more potential ways to build really effective, efficient rosters. We can now embrace in-house teams and tech, bringing strategy and agency contribution back to the center.
Darren:
What should marketers be doing in the next 12 months? They often ask what’s “best practice,” when they really mean, “what is everyone else doing?”. Do you have advice for optimizing the roster?
Nathan:
There is no such thing as best practice. There is only emerging practice. The circumstances you face are unique and require a unique solution. In 2026, don’t believe any of the hype. Have a cold, hard look at the logic and data of what you will do, and match that against market capabilities and your in-house capabilities. We’re about to see a large bubble burst around AI valuations. Don’t believe anybody selling you something airtight and hermetically sealed as the new solution. Stay really flexible, and steal a march on your competitors by putting strategy and creativity back in the middle of your business.
Darren:
Great advice, Nathan. Thank you.
Nathan:
Thanks, Darren.
Nick Hand, Senior Finance Consultant: Articulating Value vs. Cost
Darren:
Joining me now is our Senior Finance Consultant, Nick Han. What are the big issues that marketers and their agencies really need to be focusing on now?
Nick:
Marketers and their agencies are still struggling to articulate the value of agency services. Despite having advanced data and modeling, advertisers and agencies remain unable to clearly demonstrate where value was created and how it should be measured.
Darren:
Because of that, there’s a continued defaulting to the cost of services.
Nick:
Exactly. Anytime you can clearly demonstrate value, you turn agency work from a cost to be questioned to a business investment that can be defended and optimized. The meat and potatoes of pricing agency services should be based around this notion of value—a value equation.
Darren:
You’re talking about an approach to pricing based on value, not just performance-based fees.
Nick:
Correct. The same equation consumers use: does the benefit I derive equal or exceed the resources (money and time) I’m spending?
Darren:
That allows for conversations around what drives value—is it strategy, creative, account management, or production? This leads to variable pricing across disciplines, which is much more interesting than a flat, one-size-fits-all approach.
Nick:
I thought we had started to move away from input-based thinking in preceding years, but this year, whether due to budget reductions or market concerns, we seem to have reverted. This stems from most organizations’ inability to articulate what success looks like for their agency services. The CMO focuses on brand metrics, the CFO on revenue targets, the CEO on short-term growth, and procurement on reducing costs. You have four different parties chasing four different things.
Darren:
I feel sorry for procurement, whose KPI is cost reduction, setting it up immediately as a cost, not an investment in growth.
Nick:
Exactly. With five different people (including the agency) pulling in different directions, it’s no wonder there’s friction.
Darren:
What’s your advice for marketers and agencies looking at fees in the next 12 months?
Nick:
Agree on that definition of success for 12 months after signing the contract. Also, critically question your roster: fragmentation makes it difficult because no one owns the whole funnel or the whole story. Finally, there needs to be a real-world conversation about AI. Agencies talk up AI and efficiency, but clients are surprised when there is no commensurate reduction in the fee.
Darren:
Plenty of valuable advice there, Nick. Thank you.
Stephen Wright, Global Media Business Director: AI as the Dominant Force in Media
Darren:
Joining me now is the Global Media Business Director, Stephen Wright. What do you think marketers and their agencies should be focused on in media?
Stephen:
This has been the year of AI. It has dominated the media landscape, affecting remuneration (staff replacement by automation), and media planning. Large holding companies are developing sophisticated tools that provide a media plan entirely devoid of human input as a start point. The selling side is also affected: tech companies use AI to package and manipulate inventory to increase yield. When they change algorithms, profitability goes up in “blips” while buyers struggle to find value. Performance measurement and market mix modeling are now predominant, using higher quality algorithms to give marketers a more accurate read on what’s working.
Darren:
It highlights the importance of having the right people and thinking. What advice do you have for marketers regarding media in the next 12 months?
Stephen:
Do an audit of how you’re using AI and how it’s affecting your business. Ask probing questions of your partners about what AI is doing and whether they are creating any advantage for you. Beyond AI, question if they are providing the high-end strategy and planning skills. When everyone is clustered together in cost-effective AI environments, doing “brave new things” and getting high levels of consumer attention is where you amplify the value of your money.
Darren:
Thanks Steve, that’s some great insights.
Adrian Treahy, Senior Technology and Data Consultant: The Move to Privacy-First Marketing
Darren:
Now joining me is the Senior Technology and Data Consultant, Adrian Tre. What is the topic or issue that marketers and their agencies should be focusing on now?
Adrian:
It’s about moving to data first, privacy first marketing. This is critical because of:
- Regulatory changes with Australian privacy laws.
- The end of the third-party cookie phase-out.
- Consumer trust issues due to data breaches.
We need a privacy by design approach. This is a transformational challenge, not just a marketing one. Privacy by design means every aspect of the business must consider how data is handled. This changes the definition of a campaign and requires solving issues like data silos and system fragmentation.
Darren:
The trend toward in-housing to control first-party data is not a panacea; there is still much work to do.
Adrian:
What I recommend is a shopping list of things:
- Prioritize first-party data and zero-party data.
- Embrace radical transparency by putting consent up front to drive strategy.
- Address technical and operational readiness. This means migrating to privacy-compliant analytics, server-side tracking and tagging, and using clean rooms for data sharing.
- Move to contextual-based advertising instead of creepy tracking that destroys brand trust.
- Strengthen governance by minimizing data collection and using consent management platforms.
- Foster collaboration so agencies talk strategically about privacy-first marketing.
Darren:
They should start now.
Adrian:
Yes, there’s a huge amount to do.
Christopher Sewell, Senior Production and Environmental Consultant: Mandatory Climate Reporting
Darren:
I’m joined now by Christopher Sewell, senior production and environmental consultant. What are the issues marketers and agencies should be focusing on regarding the climate crisis?
Christopher:
There needs to be more urgency around mandatory climate reporting. The revenue threshold drops to $25 million by July 2027. Any company with revenue over $25 million in 18 months will have to report, or they will be a supplier to clients who must report.
Darren:
This mandatory reporting is now part of the financial reporting.
Christopher:
Very much so. This function is quickly being passed to the finance team, making it a number-crunching and audit exercise. The numbers must be correct and conform to complex reporting requirements.
Darren:
Many agencies claim “net zero,” but it’s based on offsets rather than actual reduction. Is that an issue?
Christopher:
Yes. There are too many problems with offsets. We will see a shift toward nature-based credits. The focus needs to be on measuring, understanding, and reducing emissions.
Darren:
What are the top three things companies should be doing in the next 12 months?
Christopher:
- Have a C-suite-driven environmental policy that is embedded in everything the company does.
- Media companies must be measuring their emissions.
- Agencies need to be sitting as advisors on how to achieve a lower carbon footprint for the same business outcome. If they don’t, they will be bypassed.
Ellie Angell, Trinity P3 Business Director: Advancing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI)
Darren:
My next guest is Ellie Angel, Trinity P3 business director. What are the topics or issues that agencies and marketers should be thinking about?
Ellie:
I’d like to address the progress of DEI in our industry.
Darren:
DEI is a driver of creativity and innovation, which thrive on diversity of thinking. Where are we at?
Ellie:
Globally, DEI has been under threat this year due to a right-wing culture. We’ve seen large global companies reportedly scaling back policies. However, there is much to be positive about locally. Industry bodies still run programs, leaders like Aimee Buchanan continue to advocate, and we see ground-up advocacy through regular learning sessions and support networks.
Darren:
What are you recommending people do to support and drive DEI in the next 12 months?
Ellie:
The positives are largely geared to LGBTQI + and female empowerment. DEI is a massive spectrum. We must ensure that one area doesn’t dominate the narrative. We still have massive way to go in attracting Indigenous Australians and understanding areas like neurodiversity and people with different physical capabilities. I also want to see more diligence checking in pitches. While corporates ask about sustainability and anti-bullying, we don’t often see broad inquiries about agencies’ overall DEI policies. We should push each other by asking those questions.
Anton Buchner, Business Director, Technology and Data: Increasing Accountability (IA)
Darren:
My next guest is Anton Buchner, Business Director on Technology and Data. What are the big issues that marketers and their agencies should be focusing on?
Anton:
Everyone talks about AI. I’m calling it Increasing Accountability (IA). Accountability has been a focus, but many marketers have relied on vanity metrics. Now, we are seeing marketers get the rigor in place to prove their investment is driving commercial outcomes. A critical part of this is aligning objectives—a “democracy of impact”. Often, the marketing team, their silos, and their agencies do not share the same objectives.
Darren:
The worry is that accountability often defaults to very short-term activities. It should be about getting the long and the short of it right, maintaining premiums, and delivering future growth.
Anton:
The difficulty is that data can answer any question. Many e-commerce experts defaulted to last-click performance marketing, which is a fallacy and a real problem for the industry. Long and short is a real challenge.
Darren:
What should a marketer or agency be doing in the next 12 months?
Anton:
- Align your objectives: Get sales, marketing, and agency teams aligned around core business objectives, ideally including a profit measure.
- Rigorous measurement: Focus on three key measures: brand impact (long-term), customer acquisition impact (including quality of acquisition), and lifetime value (customer value).
Lydia Feely, General Manager: The Risk of Inaction and the Power of Social Media
Darren:
I’m joined by General Manager, Lydia Feely. What trend or issue should marketers and agencies be focusing on?
Lydia:
The marketing landscape is progressing fast. The biggest risk facing marketers is inaction. People feel the changes are so big they try to solve everything at once, which leads to waiting or slowing down. Two other risks are being “romantic” about past ways of making money or rolling out campaigns, and the perennial inability to prioritize.
Darren:
What is your advice for marketing leaders in the next 12 months?
Lydia:
The biggest thing they can do is to get social media right. You don’t have to do it all at once; you can start small and get runs on the board immediately. Social media is no longer just a channel; it’s almost an operating system. It can lead how an organization works to deliver what the consumer wants. It provides both short-term fixes and is part of the long-term solution, working across the entire funnel. You can build it as you go, and its ecosystem feeds into your long-term plan, from creative testing to conversions.
Dr. Kate Gunby, Senior Data and Measurement Consultant: The Discipline of Measurement
Darren:
I’m joined by Senior Data and Measurement Consultant, Dr. Kate Gunby. What issue is dominating, other than AI?
Kate:
While progress is being made with market mix modeling, the big challenge is actually using and implementing the data. The models are a comfort blanket, but using them to dictate and maximize future returns is still a sticking point. This comes down to a lack of discipline. We are still lacking a measure for creativity, which research shows is the biggest driver of returns. Models are still massively media-focused.
Darren:
What should marketers be thinking about for the next 12 months?
Kate:
Have the discipline to work out the big questions, focusing on what you have control over to change. The advice is simple: do more of what’s doing well and less of what’s doing badly. If you can change a little bit of that each year, you’re going to be winning.
Jeremy Taylor, Managing Director, UK: Transparency in Intermediary Fees
Darren:
I’m joined by the Managing Director of Trinity P3 UK, Jeremy Taylor. What is the issue marketers and their agencies should be focusing on?
Jeremy:
I want to review the topic of intermediaries, specifically the way they charge for services. There is a clear trend in which intermediaries tell clients they don’t need to pay because they will get their money elsewhere. The concern is that they charge agencies in various ways, often including a winner’s fee (a percentage of the first year’s fee). This is incredibly unethical and worrying. “He who pays the piper calls the tune”. If the agency is paying, who is running the process?
Darren:
What should marketers be thinking about?
Jeremy:
They should think about the quality of what they are getting. Not all agencies will pay, especially big names or small startups. If you expect to pay nothing, you won’t get the whole market or the best resource. It’s a false economy. Marketers need transparency. Trinity P3 believes the beneficiary should be the one who pays.
Mark Smith, Business Director, UK: The Better Pitch Checklist
Darren:
I’m joined by Mark Smith, the architect of the better pitch. What’s the one topic marketers and agencies should be focused on?
Mark:
Unsurprisingly, pitching. The biggest flaw is that marketers think the process is straightforward and don’t prepare; you have to prepare for the pitch process.
Darren:
Running a pitch is like taking on a second full-time job.
Mark:
Yes. The process, to do it properly, involves a lot of work. Marketers should start by asking: “Should we even be pitching?”. Pitching is about getting great work and fresh thinking.
Darren:
I like your five F’s: fast, fit, focused, fair, and fun. What was the motivation for bringing the fun back?
Mark:
The fun has been stripped out. Fun doesn’t mean frivolous; it means injecting creativity. Pitching had stopped being fun and was demoralizing for agency teams. The pitch process isn’t necessarily broken; behavior is broken. The process just needs to be better and more appropriate.
Darren:
What do you recommend for the next 12 months?
Mark:
- Ask, “Do we need to pitch?” and be truthful. Use the free better pitch checklist on our website.
- If a pitch is required, scale back what you think you need. Think about the right size for the piece of work.
- Don’t judge an agency just on how they present. This is about a long-term relationship, so you need to understand how an agency works. The better pitch process builds in real-time collaboration.
Darren:
Great advice, Mark. Thank you.
