Rob Shwetz has worked in marketing, media and advertising worldwide, from Asia to North America and now in Australia. He is a B-Lab trained B Consultant, a graduate of the Australian Institute of company directors, and a partner and Strategist for the Growth Activists, a strategy and communication consultancy focusing on ESG. Rob shares the latest trend in ESG and the impact this will have on media, marketing and advertising. And he fears that few in the industry are taking a complete business view of their ESG strategies or have a clear view of what it takes to develop and implement an ESG strategy before the demand hits them.
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it is a long-term commitment that’s going to fundamentally change the way that you actually do business.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Wooley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Today, I’m sitting down with someone who has worked around the world in marketing, media, and advertising, from Asia to North America, and now, here in Australia. A B Lab trained, B consultant, and Australian Institute of Company Directors graduate.
He’s a partner and strategist for the Growth Activists, a strategy and engagement consultancy, and he’s here to discuss the trends in ESG and the impact this will have on media, marketing, and advertising. Please welcome to Managing Marketing, Rob Shwetz. Welcome, Rob.
Rob:
Darren, absolutely fantastic to be here and thank you for taking the time today.
Darren:
Well, no, thank you. Because look, this is an area that I often feel that marketing and particularly, advertising are a little bit behind in. It’s like the corporate world is moving forward on the agendas that were set up by the UN around the sustainability goals and that it’s having a trickle-down effect.
First of all, trickle down market by market and within organizations trickle down to marketing and advertising. Do you think that’s a fair summation, or am I somewhat harsh?
Rob:
I think that is quite accurate in terms of actually looking at the starting point for sustainability initiatives.
One of the questions we get asked from clients is really around are these sustainability initiatives going to drive consumer choice and consumer demand. And if that’s the only qualifier they’re looking for, then our answer is no.
It is apparent in some categories more than others. If you look at fashion and retail, it is becoming a clear decider of choice of one brand over the next. But across FMCG, across beverages, is it really a decider for consumer choice at this point in time?
No, not necessarily, but I think if you look at the cumulative impact of actually applying sustainability strategies and not look at a direct output as being advertising and communications, it’s going to have a much more significant impact both on your business, but also, on your client’s business.
Darren:
Yeah. So, it’s interesting because ESG is something from our perspective, we’ve been talking with procurement, for instance, for five or six-
Rob:
We do love procurement.
Darren:
Well, for five or six years, it’s been on their radar. And increasingly, they’ve wanted when they’re involved in selecting for instance, advertising agencies or any suppliers, they’re adding more and more criteria to a tender to make sure that the suppliers comply with things like Modern Slavery Act, zero net and things like that.
This is almost like a checklist that they’re bringing to it. But it’s interesting that when you talk to, for instance, corporate strategy or corporate comms, it’s much more on their agenda as an operating model.
Rob:
When you’re looking at different points of entry of ESG into an organization, you’re going to get different motivators and drivers. If you’re looking at it from the point of view, of a CMO, for example, it’s going to be, is it going actually to generate demand? How do we build this into our demand-generation capabilities?
If you’re talking to a CFO, for example, more and more increasingly, they’re actually being asked to develop ESG and sustainability strategies to look at how to actually refinance and provide a credible narrative back to the market and their investors as well.
Point of entry of HR and people and culture, it’s around employee motivation, it’s employee retention, and more and more now, it’s actually about actually having a purpose and a sustainability strategy to bring people on board.
You know, some of the HR teams that we’ve spoken to in the last six months, they’re saying it’s actually quite amazing that two, three years ago, sustainability and ESG wasn’t on a list of any questions of respondents or candidates would actually look at asking. And now, they’re coming in, they’re going 30 to 40% are actually not just questioning us on our sustainability strategies, but they’re actually interrogating us.
And we need to actually have the answer if we’re going to become an employer of choice.
Darren:
Yeah, it’s interesting because that change is occurring, isn’t it? And it’s interesting that you highlight the employment market or the talent market in a way because individuals are making those decisions around where they want to work.
Perhaps that’s a function of our global low unemployment rate, or maybe it’s some people who point to the global pandemic as a time when people start to reevaluate what was important to them, but it really has become a big issue, particularly in the past couple of years.
Rob:
Well, I think the pandemic, in particular, was actually a time of reflection, not just for individuals but for businesses and corporations themselves. I think when you actually look at the impact of the pandemic as well, I think from a global national perspective, there is such a focus on the interconnectivity between all of us as individuals, all of us as countries, all of us as people that are making choices on a day-to-day basis around how we behave, how we operate, and how we actually choose the things we purchase and engage with particularly from an employer level as well.
So, that period of reflection has been reflected back in terms of you looking at the impact it’s had on businesses queuing up for B Corp certification.
So, for those that aren’t aware of what a B Corp certification is, it’s one of the world’s most recognized business certifications for sustainability. It cuts across five key areas, not just the E, not just the S, and not just the G in ESG, but really looks at communities, workers, customers, governance, and the environment with an interrogation of up to 170 questions that drill down into data points of how many people are on your leadership team who are female? How are you actually serving underserved communities? How are you actually interrogating your supply chain? Do you know the supply chain of your supply chain?
So, the level of detail and interrogation in the certification itself is quite in-depth, but when you actually look at the value of the certification right now, there are around 5,400 B Corp certified globally. Just in the last 18 months, there have been another 6,000 businesses that have actually prepared themselves for verification and got into the certification queue.
So, you’re looking at almost a doubling in size of a set of businesses that want to be aligned with a community who are sharing the same values, the ones who are actually basically making a very public commitment to their overall ESG and sustainability practices and have actually demonstrated the proof through independent verification that they’re credible and can actually stand behind that claim.
Darren:
And the exciting thing for me is the fact Rob, that when I first heard about B Corp, it was small to medium enterprises, and now, we’re seeing lots of very large enterprises also getting B Corp certification.
Now, having talked to people that have been certified for a small business, the rigour and the detail that they said you need to go through, this is not a rubber stamp, is it? This is a detailed assessment of the organization, their practices, their philosophies, and that type of thing. To do that for a very large company must be a phenomenal exercise.
Rob:
It’s a phenomenal exercise, but also takes commitment from the board down in terms of actually not just the outcome of the certification but the process to actually get there.
One group that we’ve actually been working with has gone through the certification process for about two and a half to three years. The level of detail that was required in terms of their global practices because they’re located in Australia, North America, Europe, Asia, but not South America — all of their global practices, being able to actually consolidate that, and then be able to actually demonstrate through proof and data that they’ve actually demonstrated actions on their commitments, and then delivered on those actions as well.
So, for a large organization, again, it can take up to two and a half to three years. If you look at someone who recently certified in espresso, they’ve recently certified globally as well. And if you look at the amount of investment they’ve spent into their supply chain, ensuring that their farmers are actually well taken care of, that they’re fairly paid, that the carbon emissions and their supply chain are being mitigated and being reduced.
Darren:
And it’s not just saying it. As you said, they have to supply the data to support it. Look, and the reason I wanted to pick on this particular point is that we see certifications flying around the world. Like Coco, there was an official certification. Then some businesses started producing their own certification.
But this is actually quite a rigorous and detailed process. It would be very hard to do this as a rubber stamp exercise, wouldn’t it? You would have to commit the whole business too.
Rob:
It you’re looking at it as a rubber stamp exercise, then don’t touch it, is my recommendation. There needs to be a commitment to actually really significantly look at business improvement and actually commit to that improvement as well.
But in businesses that we’ve worked with, going through the certification process as well, we find that there are almost three groups of businesses that we’re working with. They’re the ones who are doing it and documenting it. They’re the ones who are doing it but not documenting it. So, there are fragmented initiatives all over businesses and organizations that bring that all together.
Then there’re ones who aren’t doing it, do want to do it, and do want to document it. So, we look at those as being the real aspirational ones in terms of being able to actually provide them with the roadmap for certification. That’s a little bit of a longer roadmap as well.
So, when you actually fall into those sort of three groups, I think if you look at that first group that was doing it and they were documenting it, you can look at more of an accelerated timeline to certification and verification.
The ones who are in the aspirational space, yeah we want to do it, we want to make it a commitment, we’re not doing anything right now, give it some time.
Darren:
Now, this is quite different for those that don’t or aren’t familiar with B Corp certification. It’s quite different to those companies that just say they’re purpose-driven, isn’t it? Because there’s a lot of companies that-
Rob:
Darren, don’t start me off with purpose-driven.
Darren:
Well, look, no, I think the reason I wanted to raise this is that there is a lot of cynicism in the marketplace. That there is clearly a trend, there is a consumer trend, and you mentioned it earlier; fast fashion, the fashion industry; because there are now alternatives that are coming out and offering an alternative that has less impact on the world, and in fact, in some cases, is funding doing good?
There’s a big difference between just being purpose-driven by hanging up a shingle and actually having a certification that shows that it’s not just a marketing or sales exercise, it is actually a way of doing business, isn’t it?
Rob:
It’s a fundamental way of changing business. And I think for the industry itself, the label greenwashing didn’t appear of anywhere. The industry created its own rot on its back by actually potentially making claims that weren’t able to be substantiated.
I mean, even recently, a study came out with a well-known global beverage company that produced green bottles. And part of the statement was, “Well, we’re actually going to move from green plastic bottles to white plastic bottles because you can recycle the bottles.”
And the response of their consumer base was you’ve got to be kidding. You’re actually creating a bottle that you can recycle? Like that is a hygiene factor now. Show me something we’re actually collecting plastic from oceans and turning it into bottles. Show me what you’re doing in terms of that circularity of the supply chain around where you’re getting your products from, how you’re actually investing into your supply chain to make sure it’s sustainable, and then what are you doing with end-of-life products?
So, there is a cynicism that has been self-perpetuated by the industry. Will they be able to backtrack from it? I think they can, but there needs to be, I think almost a clear set of criteria and filters to ensure that any type of claim is both credible and provide value back to the consumer as well.
Darren:
Well, I know there’s a movement globally and locally as the Comms Declare and the fossil ad ban group. And they’re pulling up examples of greenwashing where fossil fuel companies are running advertising that’s got the windmills generating electricity and showing EV cars and things like that — proclaiming from a marketing perspective that they’re purpose-driven to reach zero net.
At the same time, their overall investment in that is less than 5% while they’re still making 95% of their profits out of mining and selling fossil fuels. This is the type of story that creates huge amounts of cynicism in the marketplace. You know, this type of blatant greenwashing makes the consumer even more sceptical about those that are trying to do good.
Rob:
I think if you actually look at the root issue, I mean, for example, we recently did a carbon audit for a client and advertising was ranked as number three in terms of carbon production. So, it wasn’t their supply chain, it wasn’t flying things in from the U.S. and it wasn’t flying things in from Asia; it wasn’t flying anywhere business class for their executives.
It was advertised – let’s take a bit of a step back and actually look at really what the fundamental issue is for the industry, and the manifestation, I think of one of these issues, is greenwashing, but where the industry is and can have a significant impact is really in that production and distribution of the work that’s actually being created.
Been looking at what are the carbon-neutral initiatives that can be put forward? How do we actually ensure that we’re tracking and measuring any type of carbon that’s being produced as a result of what we’re actually putting out into the market? So, different areas to have an impact versus just the greenwashing advertising.
Darren:
So, it’s interesting that there we’re starting to see (to use an appropriate metaphor) green shoots of change in that we’ve had a number of clients starting to look at their scope three, their upstream and downstream, and are starting to ask media agencies and the media owners to decarbonize those supply chains.
We’ve even had WPP and GroupM globally start to measure the media owners to see what their carbon contribution is. You know, this is starting to see some change, but you wonder a little bit because, in the case of WPP, they’ve got clients for instance, that are major polluters as well. You know, it’s very hard to reconcile the two.
Are you in the group that says slow change or any changes better than none, or that it’s either on or it’s off?
Rob:
There’s a third group, Darren.
Darren:
Well, that’s great because I don’t like dichotomies, but what’s the third group?
Rob:
We’ll triangulate that one for you. The third group has changed from the inside, and I think that’s looking at sort of fundamental principles around ESG. Even if you look at the philosophy around B Corp, it is around we work with for-profit businesses only. You cannot create systemic change if you’re not a for-profit business.
Profit’s not an evil word. So, being able to actually take that approach and go there is a fundamental systemic change that needs to happen and be created, that actually does need to happen from the inside of a lot of businesses, organizations, and potentially, even government.
So, yes, I’m in the third camp of making the change, making it happen from the inside. And even within the … if you want to call the most negatively impactful organizations, you’re still going to have advocates that will actually be that catalyst for change.
Darren:
See, I love that because it was either or, and now, there’s an opportunity there with the third, which is actually internal revolution, isn’t it? Or evolution.
Rob:
Revolution or evolution, I think it’s evolution. I think it’s evolution. I think when you’re looking at the, again, going back to systemic change, even within organizations, these changes will not happen overnight. These changes are not going to happen in the next six months.
Even getting your baseline measurement of what you’re impacting right now is a three to four-month exercise. So, I think in terms of evolution versus revolution, I think it’s a long-term revolution. I think we’re on this path, regardless. And there’s no turning back only because we’re seeing, I think, the consequences if we go back to old patterns of behaviour and decision-making.
Darren:
Yeah, it’s interesting that you say that about evolution because there’s this sense of urgency, especially around the environment and climate crisis.
But long-term sustainable change very rarely happens by revolution because you have to take people with you, and yet, the media love covering revolutionary things.
So, the investor advocacy of buying into AGL, for instance, buying up shares and demanding a seat on the board — the recent Patagonia family announcement of basically putting the whole company in a trust, which will then put all profits. These are the sorts of big gestures and revolutionary business gestures that get the media’s attention.
And I’m wondering if the people that are doing the hard yards and the long yards, as you said, years and years and years of bringing about this transformation — how do we recognize them? And how do we make sure that that’s also recognized?
Because in the model I gave you before, Rob, of it’s either this or it’s this. There are lots of recognition and rewards. In your model, it’s about an evolution that may not necessarily reward the people doing those hard yards.
It’s okay.
Rob:
I think evolution versus revolution implies that through evolution, there’s no impact or no benefit that can be seen today. And I think there is that component of if we go back to the ESG, if we take the S in the ESG, that’s really around people, that’s around social. Those changes can be made almost immediately.
One of the examples you mentioned earlier around the Modern Slavery Act and having agencies actually assigned to declare that they’re not actually participating in any type of modern slavery, that’s a fairly straightforward initiative that can actually take place within a business for immediate action as well.
And if you’re actually recognizing over a hundred million dollars in revenue every year, it’s actually a legal obligation to have the Modern Slavery Act posted publicly as well.
Rob:
So, I think things are moving at different speeds of revolution versus evolution. They’re not necessarily moving at concurrent speeds in terms of environmental changes versus social changes versus the governance needs or can be escalated in different businesses as well.
So, everything’s moving at different speeds. The environment ESG and sustainability environment is changing quite rapidly as well. So, we talk about things like B Corp and GRI standards and SEBs, and actually, I think we’ll start to see an amalgamation of some of these frameworks and standards over the next two to three years.
Even B Corp themselves are going through a reevaluation process of their standards with the anticipation of actually coming out with a new set of standards in 2023. And if you think those standards are tough now, wait till the next lot of standards come out.
Darren:
But that’s good because they-
Rob:
And they start to raise the bar. And there’s no looking back on this. It’s going to be if you haven’t caught up now and you’re trying to play catch up; trying to play catch in the next two years is going to be nigh impossible.
Darren:
I’m also wondering whether it goes to what is the motivation to embrace ESG or to embrace doing good. Because you sort of touched on it earlier. If the board of a large organization or the founders of a smaller organization are committed to this transformation, then if they’re doing it to get publicity or to get kudos and recognition in the short term, then it’s probably not the right motivation, is it?
It’s about transforming your business for long-term sustainability and success rather than getting the … I’m playing the devil’s advocate here in that I think sometimes people make these grand gestures because they want the recognition now. But in fact, we’ve had a hundred years or more of the industrial revolution.
It’s now a time to transform, and that’s not going to happen overnight, but we should be recognizing the people that are making the effort to transform it over time.
Rob:
Let’s look at the ideas of sustainability and sustainability as mutually compatible. You need to, at this point, in time, create your business on the principles of sustainability to have a sustainable business. There are no two ways about it.
So, let’s separate the two terms and look at sustainability and sustainable as being these two concepts, which can work together, actually, I think, quite well. I think to your point in terms of recognizing the businesses and groups that are actually doing it incredibly well, they don’t necessarily need to stand at the top of the mountain and declare their intentions or declare their successes, they’re just getting on with it.
Darren:
Getting on with it and doing their job.
Rob:
And doing their job, not necessarily feeling the ego; let’s park it there. Let’s call it the ego to go out and make these grandiose announcements where we are seeing it actually, in terms of being able to add value to businesses and actually through investor relations. Being able to look at the conversations and the pushback that shareholders are driving out of businesses and companies right now as well.
There needs to be an ESG or sustainability strategy to react to those shareholder demands as well. Where I think you’re seeing some areas where there might be a bit of not necessarily neglect — less commitment to ESG strategies, is where it’s around compliance.
So, we have to be doing what we’re doing. We’re not doing it because we’re looking at transforming our business. We’re not looking at doing it because we’re going to create a sustainable business on sustainability principles. We’re doing it because we have to.
Darren:
What you said earlier about it from a marketing perspective is that the CMO will be sitting there going, “Well, do I embrace this if it’s going to give me greater market share or a competitive advantage?” In some ways, that’s the short-term view. Whereas the long-term view is this is the right thing to do. It’s better to be a leader than to be told that you have to do it.
And I bring that up because in 2006, 2007, we started talking to the marketplace about measuring marketing CO2 contributions or greenhouse gas emissions, and people were going, “Oh …” because at that time, it was all about offsetting, and everyone saw it as another cost of business.
But in fact, it’s now got to the point that if you don’t do anything, there will be a significant cost of business because there is an already again, a move towards a cost of carbon, and marketers that embrace now and measure their CO2 contributions and look for opportunities of reducing those, are going not to be hit by that cost of carbon.
That in many ways, moving to your point, sustainability and being sustainable or embracing sustainability means reducing the cost of business. Does that make sense?
Rob:
Reducing the cost of business, but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of the shift from these initiatives being a cost and an investment.
So, reduced financial costs as well. So, being able to renegotiate better lending terms for any type of debt facility or lending facility that is out there that’s a significant cost that can be saved. Not having to reinvest in terms of any type of carbon offsets, but aiming for being carbon negative.
These are sort of really some key both cost savings, but also, I think financial gains that businesses can make by shifting that mindset from this is a cost to an investment we need to make.
Darren:
With a return on that investment.
Rob:
With a return on that investment.
Darren:
What do you see are the big considerations for marketers? When their organization either is embracing an ESG program or even B Corp certification; what is the thing that marketers should be thinking about and what should agencies that work with those marketers be thinking about?
Rob:
I think what they should be thinking about is once that commitment is made, it’s a significant commitment to actually both develop your ESG strategies but then implement and measure your ESG strategies. It’s not something that’s going to go away. It’s not something that is going to be a one-off product benefit that might disappear six months down the track.
But again, it is a long-term commitment that’s going to change the way that you do business fundamentally. So, it could be everything from where you’re getting your supplies for your supply chain. How are those changes and decisions going to have potentially even negative consequences?
I mean, when we go through and do materiality assessments for clients, it’s looking at what’s the positive impact. And also, what’s the negative impact of those decisions that are going to be made?
So, I think thinking about less the short-term quarter by quarter, but this is a commitment to a longer-term strategy as well. I think in terms of a marketing team as well; it’s going to fundamentally change how we operate everything from the production of communications through to distribution, through to engaging with suppliers, but also, engaging with the right suppliers, being able to ensure that there’s a supplier code of conduct in place that you’re measuring and tracking what’s coming in through your supply chain, and actually through your supply chain’s supply chain as well.
And being able to monitor both the ethical behavior and the output that actually is coming out of your supply chain as well. So, I think the most significant consideration is that it’s going to be a fundamental change to the way you do business. And it’s not just marketing that’s going to be impacted, it’s going to be across the organization.
Darren:
So, in many ways, people talk about the marketing transformation that’s happened in the last decade of moving to digital and data-driven marketing. Now, we’ve got another transformation which is reinventing business and marketing as part of that actually to embrace ESG guidelines or ESG objectives, aren’t we?
Rob:
Well, it’s a matter of embracing, endorsing, and implementing them.
Darren:
And living them.
Rob:
And living them. You can endorse all you want, but it will come down to the implementation. It will come down to the measurement systems you put into place. I think we’re looking at what type of environmental measurement systems businesses use to measure not just their energy consumption but their carbon consumption.
How much energy are your teams using to come to work; are you encouraging recruitment from a local level as opposed to actually bringing in people from overseas – all these things have a significant and cumulative impact.
Darren:
So, there’s been some big organizations, particularly in Australia, that have announced efforts to decarbonize. They’ve made commitments to decarbonize. So, you provided me here a list — CommBank, IAG, Suncorp, Telstra, Westpac, Woolworths.
It’d be interesting at what point in their process of achieving this they will demand that of their suppliers.
Rob:
Well, I think that process is already happening. I think there’s a cascading effect that starts to happen. So, once it cascades from the top down and pushes down through the supply chain, there will be an impact on understanding where that carbon is being generated through that entire distribution and production system as well.
So, starting from the top, wait until it starts to cascade down and have that impact further down the chain.
Darren:
What makes me smile, Rob, is that in 2019, we have an online database for agencies to provide their profiles. And in 2019, we broadened that. So, we started asking them for information about ownership, diversity of ownership, whether they were B Corps, and a number of different areas.
And I had quite cynical responses from some agencies that said, why would you even bother, and would laugh at agencies that had gone to the trouble of being a B Corp saying, “Well, it’s not going to make any difference to getting clients,” but that’s radically changing or rapidly changing, isn’t it?
Rob:
I think how it’s radically and rapidly changed. I think if you look at-
Darren:
So, in three short years-
Rob:
I think if you look at quite a well-known and well-recognized ad agency, that’s a B Corp in London, just in the last, I think, 18 months, down to the last two in a pitch, the final question is what is your sustainability strategy? Their response was, “We’re a B Corp” and that got them over the line. So, radically different, possibly-
Darren:
Rapidly maybe.
Rob:
Is it rapidly? Definitely, and the cynics are the ones that will be a little bit left behind.
Darren:
Exactly. If there was looking beyond … because I know I focused a little on carbon. It’s like the climate crisis is personally important to me. And I think living in a country like Australia, and we’ve seen extreme weather.
It’s interesting also that Suncorp and IAG are there because insurance companies are particularly being impacted from the business perspective by these radical or extreme weather changes. But ESG is more than just — the environment’s the E, social and governance. Can you expand a little bit on those?
What are the types of considerations that businesses should be looking to, particularly advertising agencies?
Rob:
Well, I think when you’re looking at the assets really around your social contract and your social obligations, so looking at areas like the diversity of leadership proportion of women who are actually in leadership roles, support of underserved and underrepresented populations in your employee base, but then almost extending that into the larger community as well.
So, when and how are you engaging with all of your suppliers? How are you treating your suppliers? How are you treating your suppliers, and how are they evaluating you as a customer?
S is probably one of the more difficult ones to measure. There are different measurements around employee engagement, employee retention, and the length of supplier tenure. So again, more of the sort of softer measures in terms of understanding the S in ESG and expanding it beyond just that environmental component.
Darren:
And governance? I mean, it’s interesting; we use terms like governance and due diligence and things like that, but it means holding to account, doesn’t it?
Rob:
Holding to account and committing to almost the highest possible ethical standards, but then actually, from a governance point of view, being able to then put that into an implementation phase.
So, one example might be particularly around advertising, and we’ll move beyond greenwashing and say all of our advertising will be ethical. It will not be misleading. It will not make any types of claims that are untrue. You know, having that policy in place documented and recognized throughout the company is a modus operandi for the business as well.
So, it is drilling down and going okay from a governance point of view, what, and how do we need to put these policy structures and implementation components into place, and ensuring that they’re being delivered against that framework of almost the highest possible ethics that we can live and breathe by.
Darren:
And I think it’s so essential because, particularly in the last three years, in our role of helping marketers choose agencies, we have emphasized with agencies how well they are embracing ESG.
And what I often get — I was once sent a 40-page document on their policies around employees (40 pages), and I flicked through it, and there were things in there that I thought would bring it. But when I went back and I spot-checked a few of them, none of the employees knew about it.
And I sometimes worry that this could easily fall into the trap of just being, “Yeah, well, we’ve done that, tick the box and move on.” And that’s why I think governance is so important that it doesn’t matter what you say; it’s what you do that counts.
Rob:
This isn’t a smoke-and-mirrors game. This is a commitment from a board level down and a board increasingly looking at the environment as a significant risk. So, that’s being assessed from that perspective when they have a time horizon of the business of 3, 5, 10 years versus the quarter-by-quarter perspective.
So, that governance is accountable and sits at that level, but then needs to be delivered throughout the organization. And again, to the point earlier around that board-level commitment to ESG, it’s a long-term commitment. It’s not about smoking mirrors. It’s not about a written policy. It’s about living and breathing those things.
Darren:
Look, Rob, it’s been terrific having this conversation. I appreciate you taking the time because this is an important issue. And if the last three years have shown anything, it will become more and more of a part of the way we do business very shortly. So, thank you for coming in and having a chat.
Rob:
Man, thank you for your time, Darren, I greatly appreciate it.
Darren:
And just before you go, like it’s easy to say, who do you think is doing the best? But in your role, which is the biggest challenge? Which company poses the biggest challenge that you’d love to get your teeth into?