Jacquie Alley is the Chief Operating Officer of Mediastore and the Chair of Independent Media Agencies Australia (IMAA). Margie Reid is the Chief Executive Officer of possibly the most talked-about agency in the market, Thinkerbell.
Together, they represent two distinct paths to owning and managing an independent agency business. Jacquie worked in the family business, on and off, for much of her career. Margie built a career by rising through the ranks of major network agencies to become Managing Director before taking the leap to equity ownership and assuming the chief executive role.
These two business leaders share the joys and challenges of independent agencies, providing invaluable insight into the values-driven decision-making that makes indies so appealing to staff and an ever-growing cohort of marketers.
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I know Sam and I have been very passionate about is trying to do some deals for the indies so that they all do have the basic toolkit to do really sophisticated media.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I am Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management Consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you are enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, share, review this episode to help spread the words and wisdom from our guests each week.
At the moment, it feels like the global media and marketing headlines are filled with what’s happening with the major holding companies. Month after month, we read about mergers, takeovers, consolidations, name changes, and transformations.
In the midst of this public relations storm, it’s easy to forget that not all agencies are part of a global network owned by publicly listed companies or holding companies or working for global clients, and that there are, in fact, a growing group of agile and innovative independent agencies offering marketers a real alternative.
So, today, let’s go beyond the spruiking and the spin and find out what it means today to be an indie agency. To discuss this topic, please welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, two people overly qualified on this topic. The first is Chief Operating Officer of the Media Store and the chair of the Independent Media Agencies of Australia, Jacquie Alley. Welcome Jacquie.
Jacquie:
Thanks, Darren. Good to be here.
Darren:
And the CEO of possibly the most talked about agency in the Australian market, Thinkerbell, Margie Reid.
Margie:
Hi Darren, wonderful to be here.
Darren:
Thanks for joining us. I want to start off just for those people that are not aware, the two of you are great leaders in your own agencies, but you have very different paths to getting there.
Jacquie, starting with you, you have been with the media store for quite a long time, and have extensive experience from that perspective. I wouldn’t mind just getting an understanding of what drew you into that business, and what is it that has kept you there?
Jacquie:
Great question because for those who don’t know, it was my dad’s agency, he started it, came out of Publicis, started his own agency with a founding client of Toyota.
It was never my plan to be in the family agency. I wanted to be a journo. I did Mass Comm. I loved to write and then circumstances happened and he needed an extra pair of hands when he started.
And so, I started working there primarily for many years working in the research and insights team because I’m fascinated by behavior and psychology and why people do the things that they do. I kept one foot always in the agency and then I explored a whole range of other things in my life that people probably don’t know.
I did a counseling postgrad. I worked with domestic violence. I worked in youth work. All the while just keeping a foot in the agency because they became like my second family.
And it wasn’t until we grew enough where they needed a people and culture lead that the team are like, “Jac, you’ve kind of been doing this for years, come and run it.” And so, I say that was the moment I think that whole industry captured my heart. I’m like, “If I can invest in people, then I’m in.”
So, that’s really when I kind of became full-time at TMS. I was an employee the whole time until five years ago. I had no equity until Steven, and I took over ownership five years ago. And so, yes, it’s been a long journey. This is my 28th year. And I know 10 years like that don’t exist very much. So, I have seen a lot and I’ve been the consistent thread throughout the agency for that time.
So yes, I am particularly passionate about indies, and I think I can talk to that moment where we did end up losing our founding client, that was the moment that I had the empathy for what every other indie was facing. Because when you have a top 10 advertiser and huge budgets, you don’t really understand.
And so, it was that moment that I had this incredible understanding of what it’s like to run a business. And that’s when I really went into the IMAA and my passion remains there.
Darren:
It was interesting from my perspective because there was so many agencies, particularly big network media agencies that would look at TMS and be going, “We want that business.” There were so many times that people were desperately trying to steal your foundation client over that time, but I don’t think they ever really got the relationship that anchored it. They were purely looking at it from a financial and a client agency point of view.
But in some ways, I love what you said, the family business. Because it was located for a long time out of the main agency landscape. You’re up-
Jacquie:
Totally, we’re in our time and next to KFC.
Darren:
And colt’s not the right word, but it had this cohesive group about it. These people that were dedicated. Because I remember someone saying you had one of the lowest turnover rates of staff as well. You had people that were there almost as long as you’ve been there.
Jacquie:
We have a tenure board and it’s quite full. So, that is unheard of. Our tenure is not quite as strong as it was then, but there was something really unique about it. And I think agencies were always at our heels, always trying to go and take that from us. But I think to your point, Darren, there was something so fundamental about the relationship.
The people that worked at the media store, it’s like it was their business and still is today. It’s like it’s their business; they dedicated their careers to it. So, they lived and breathed auto, you could speak to any of them and ask them what the sales data were, and they knew all of it.
So, we were living and breathing that client’s success. And I think from the outside, a lot of people saw it as, oh, great budgets. I think they just plan and buy media. But people have no idea what we did.
We were forever re-imagining ourselves to make sure we had the capability to take them to the next level. And we increased our share of wallet over that period of time. We ended up getting Lexus, getting the paid social, getting all of the-
Darren:
Sponsorship. I remember you built a huge sponsorship business.
Jacquie:
We had a sponsorship team of six full-time equivalent people. So, they were in the rooms with the AFL negotiating the television rights, not just adding the billboards to the telecast. They were speaking to producers when we would do a sponsorship to make sure that the content was really authentically weaved throughout.
So, there was a whole specialty there that I don’t think people probably grasped. So, I think those that were on our heels, I would like to think didn’t have a chance because we genuinely operated. They were at the center of everything. And so, we were always looking at what capability we needed to get in order to help them grow.
Darren:
And be more responsive that way. But Margie, your path has been very different. Looking at your career, it’s been in many of these big network agencies. How did you get into the industry? And then it’s only in the last, what was it, 2017?
Margie:
Yes. Last seven years.
Darren:
Yeah, seven years you’ve been involved and a major part of think about. So, give us the background.
Margie:
I started at DDB when media was back in house just before DDB and Clemenger media teams joined forces to become OMD. And there were four of us and 30 something of the Clemenger media team. And we moved in together and started up OMD.
And it was crazy in those days because they had to create a culture, create a company and it was wonderful. But then I went onto Carat, which was a startup business at the time. It was independent ownership then. And that was prior to the ages on purchase. Then I went to UN and then 11 years at OMD.
So, I feel incredibly fortunate throughout all of that experience that I’ve worked with incredible people and appreciated so many talented elements of the people in those agencies. But also got to see the inner workings of both Caribbean and independent at that time, but the others being holding Cos.
So, I don’t think I would be here if I didn’t have that experience. So, I know that there’s a lot of tit for tat between holding Cos and indies, but I do think there’s a lot of talented people in indies because of the grooming that they’ve had in the time at holding Cos.
Darren:
So, it must have been interesting because Adam Ferrier can be incredibly persuasive even if you don’t understand everything he said.
For you to go from a career of working … and let’s be honest as an employee, sure, you could lose your job tomorrow as anyone can as an employee, but to go from that security in some ways to making that leap into an indie it was up and running.
So, it had some runs on the board, but for you to come on board and take that leadership role, because it was creative and strategically driven that it did need that sort of more a business focus.
What gave you either the confidence, or convinced you that this was a good move for you and your family?
Margie:
It definitely was a leap. It was a leap into the unknown, but I was really clear that I wanted to grow something, and I wanted to shape it.
So, with that conviction and I had to back myself. And I don’t think we often do that. Especially as women. And I know this is not a gender talk, but it definitely isn’t something that we do. But I knew that I could grow business. I knew that I was a strong leader. I had good financial understanding of all of that as well as a practitioner. So, I had to go right, if I want to take a leap, what is that leap and who is it with?
So, spent a bit of time talking to different organizations including Adam, Jim and Couz. They’d started thinking for about three months and they suddenly realized they didn’t know how to run a company. And they will hear this and they will agree with that. And I love them to death. And we all play our roles. But there was something, the moment I met them that I felt in my tummy and my heart and my head, and-
Darren:
It was visceral.
Margie:
It was. And I think they had the same, I hope they did anyway. They had the same reaction. We spent a little bit of time, especially in hidden boardrooms, talking about what did it mean creating this partnership? And I was coming on as an equity partner from that stage.
I knew I wanted skin in the game. I’d been holding Cos build things, and it was time to go, right, can I do this? And there is a huge fear of, oh my God, am I going to be a failure? But I had to back myself that if I did fail, I could still go back and work somewhere else.
But there was such a huge learning curve in terms of everything that you are putting on the line from the financial startup. Yes, the boys had been running, but we didn’t have a lot behind us at that point in time.
There was one small retainer client and a lot of project work. And I’d come out of an environment where everything was retainers on three-year contracts. And the relationships that we had at OMD were long and really strong relationships.
So, I had a lot of confidence in that environment. I suddenly had to go to a project base. We were 99.9% creative and brand projects. So, it was a huge learning curve, but I needed that. I was hungry for that.
But yes, dealing with the craziness of people out of a creative agency, it was different brains coming together and there was a lot of explosions.
Darren:
So, the first thing I’ll say is, as an external observer, it’s so clear that they were so excited about securing you to be a partner. Because I remember at the time the amount of publicity of Margie Reid joins Thinkerbell. It was like everywhere that this was the biggest thing that had happened to them since they’d come up with the idea of starting an agency.
So, that’s great. You both bring very different views. I love the idea of the family business and the way that’s evolved over time and the challenges. And Maggie, your ability to compare and contrast, growing and developing inside big network agencies, but then making that leap.
So, what I’d like to do now is really start to have a conversation about how that feels. Because I think a lot of times when we talk about indies and there is a dynamic and flourishing indie network or industry category here in Australia, but we don’t get a chance to talk about what that actually means. And as someone that’s run their own business for 25 years and had the ups and the downs and all sorts of challenges, I think it’s really insightful to share that.
So, if you are open to it, the first thing, there’s something you mentioned Margie, which was there’s a lot to learn about things like reading P&Ls and cash flow reports and all that sort of thing.
Margie:
I mean, I think in holding co you do get access to the P&L you’re not fully responsible for every part. There is so many layers of levels from New York through to local management. But with that, you suddenly are fully responsible for every single aspect of it down to, obviously you’re a director of the company, so there is a liability there. And people often say that’s where you’ve got your house on the line.
And nothing was more evident of that when COVID hit. And that Friday the 13th when so many clients were calling and going, we’re so sorry, but we’re pulling our contract with you. We’re so sorry, but that project that was going is now dead.
And I remember calling Adam, Jim and Couz on the Friday afternoon saying, “This is the worst day that I think I’ve ever had in my career. We have lost a substantial amount of money for the next few months.
I’m going to do a full review over the weekend to see where we sit, but we’re holding back 50% of our pay as effective immediately, because payroll was running through, I’m not sure how we’re going to get through this, but it’s hitting and it’s hitting hard.” And I mean, the guys were great about it, like whatever you need, tell us what we can do.
And I remember speaking to one client and I was ringing to check in, so I did a full audit through every client. Where do you think you’re sitting? Some knew, some didn’t. And there was one particular fantastic organization that said, “We will keep spending with you. We want to see you get through this.”
Seeing local businesses thrive is part of our DNA. And to this day, that client or those clients and those senior marketers that had our back through it … it still makes me emotional thinking about, I know where I was standing in sorry hills when I was thinking the world was going to end for Thinkerbell on that time, and we weren’t going to get through.
We had 50 staff at that time. We were so fortunate through our model, through the connections that we had in the market that we actually thrived. We ended up coming out with a hundred people out of COVID, needed new offices. Our model had absolutely solidified, but our people were absolutely behind what we were and who we are.
And I think you touched on it, Jacquie, there’s something in an independent agency where everybody’s in it together. There’s that honesty there. They can see that you’ve got your sleeves rolled up.
You are in the stress of the moment through to celebrating the wins together. And nothing made that more evident than that time when I was like golly, everything is on the line seriously at this point in time.
Darren:
And the media story Jacquie, you touched on it, but losing your foundation client was a huge challenge. But it’s more — and you need to address that. But even on a day-to-day basis, the thing is when I talk to network CEOs or CFOs, most of the reporting is about growth.
They have to work out what’s their billings going to be from clients, what’s organic billings? What are the opportunities for new business? It’s focused on top-line growth because most of the formulas for then their costs and their rental contracts and all that is actually handled separately, isn’t it?
Jacquie:
Yes, absolutely. And I think what you were saying, Margie, there’s those moments that you remember where you go, this is real.
And like I said at the beginning, I was an employee for 23 years and I ended up being on the advisory board and COO before I took ownership. And you think you’re across it. You think you are being diligent, and you believe that you’re doing the best by the company and then the day the ownership changes and I tell you, the things that keep you up at night completely change.
So, that P&L comes to life. They’re not numbers or ratios on a page. They’re people’s livelihoods, they’re families, they’re people that have been very loyal to you. The tool decisions you then have to make. It becomes very real, and I didn’t have any idea.
And so, like talking about how you introduced yourself, Darren, as owning a business, I now have this incredible empathy for any small to medium business owner. So, it’s not even just indie agencies, it’s anyone who owns a small medium business in this country.
We understand the rollercoaster that it is, and the highs are amazing and we share them with our team. And the lows are really tough. And I think that’s where it can be a bit lonely as a leader of an indie agencies. You have to protect your team to some level.
So, we are transparent, and we are open with our team, but sometimes you have to protect them from some of the lows. And you have to take personal costs.
So, we had a time a few years ago when one of our clients just stopped spending abruptly. So, Steven and I took 20% pay cuts overnight, and actually I don’t think they’ve come back, so we’re going to need fix that. I’m doing the numbers in my head.
And we genuinely go through that with our team. If we’re asking our team, and we’ve never asked our team, a couple of them during COVID went down to part-time because they wanted to be with their kids and a range of things. But we held all salaries, we took the personal cuts because that’s what you’re holding as an owner versus an employee.
Darren:
It is interesting how it’s the sacrifice. Everyone looks at business owners and indie owners and it’s like oh, you must be making so much money.
But when things get tough … and this is a truism, there was a famous quote, and I can’t remember who said it, it was some English agency account person said, “Any agency’s only two phone calls away from insolvency.” Because your two biggest clients phone up and say they’re taking the business away, for most agencies, that is how precarious the cash flow can be, right?
Jacquie:
Correct. But that-
Darren:
But you’ll sacrifice yourself as a business owner rather than being told by some email that you have to spill these roles and this is how much salary you have to offset, and the headcount has to get to this amount. Rather than do that, you’ll look for other ways first.
Jacquie:
Correct. In fact, it is the thing I’m most proud of, owning an agency the day I have to choose profit over people, I’m out. I mean it. Because our staff to revenue ratio, is way above industry. And I would think most indies are.
So, we are holding people for growth. We are holding senior people because we believe that’s the right thing for good client service. We are holding costs in our business that are sometimes hard to recuperate until you get that next growth. But it’s the right thing to do and it’s the right thing for not only your current clients but also your future clients.
And you talked about even organic growth. I won’t ever sell to a current client a new product to make me money. I will never make my team go and say go and go and get more of this to get more revenue.
So, I prefer retainers where I can, where they’re paying us for that kind of service so that they know I’m only ever going to recommend what’s in the right interest of them. And for me, they’re the two things I love, that I can prioritize people and that I can genuinely prioritize what’s right for the client. Because it’s very easy to recommend more paid media if you make more money really easy. And there’s lots of agencies that are structured that way.
But when you say to a client, and we did this recently and said, “We don’t think you should use that two mil for paid media, you need to go and sponsor this particular property. I promise you the return on that investment will be far more than paid media and it has been.
So, guess what? They’re our longest tenured client because they know that they’re at the center of the decision making. And I know people talk this, but this is what we live and breathe every day.
Margie:
And there’s integrity in that as well because you are genuinely recommending something because it’s going to help their business. Because you know that that’s what they need. When you are solely basing it on commission, then you’re fully tainted in terms of why you’re recommending it.
Darren:
And what I’m hearing here is a longer-term view of the market than you will ever see with a publicly listed company. Because publicly listed companies have to report every three months. They have to do their quarterly reporting and their projections for the next quarter. But you also get to take a longer-term view beyond staying solvent as a director, which is your primary responsibility.
You can also take a longer-term view, and this moves it into that next area I want to talk about is investment. It’s not like you have to invest for an immediate return. Jacquie, you talked about investing in people, keeping more senior people or keeping head count, but making decisions about investment can be a much longer term.
Jacquie:
We do play the long game, and I think because if we are realistic about how long we want to own our agencies, I want to be in it another 10 years. So, there is a long-term gain. And I want to not only make some money of course, but also be really proud of the legacy I leave.
And so, we are playing the long game the whole time. We are thinking about what’s coming next. We aren’t planning quarter by quarter; we’re doing annual planning. We are holding extra costs in the business at particular seasons and then other seasons we need to tighten our belts. But even when we’re tightening our belts, they’re an open conversation with the team.
So, I’ll say to them, I can’t offer you this, this, and this that you will get at a bigger agency, but this is why. So, let’s talk about what we can do that still delivers that need for you, but is going to not cost the same amount that that might. And it’s those kind of transparent conversations that people gravitate to and go, I feel like I’m now part of the growth journey.
Margie:
And I think when you share that midterm and long-term strategy with them and you’re taking people on a journey, you’re having open conversations, people get behind it, you then bring this entrepreneurial spirit that comes to the table. You explain why that investment’s happening in that particular area, and then why some of your decisions are being made.
You’re also considering how much cash flow are you leaving in the bank so that you can manage those rainy days. But it’s that holistic view of it as well as being an operator of a media agency. You’ve got to know all of the media side of it. So, you have to be completely full rounded.
Jacquie:
And I think the benefit to our people is they’re actually kind of learning business skills along the way. They’re not just learning their craft and client service and all the wonderful things we do, but they’re learning what it’s like and what levers we can pull. And sometimes they’re part of that decision making and sometimes they’re not. But we explain why we’ve come to a decision.
And so, there is definitely this feeling of we are in this together, we are growing together and that’s why we have longer tenures. It’s why our clients stay longer. Our people stay longer because they believe in the longer-term vision.
Margie:
And I think when you have a great team of people, they’re also bringing ideas about investment to the table because you’re driving that and instilling in them that this is a business that will invest in things. What ideas do they have? What is the success measures of that investment? And therefore, let’s give it a go.
Darren:
Which is interesting because that is one of the things that a lot of marketers are asking for. They wish their agencies would be more commercially savvy.
And so, even to run your business in a way that your staff are more and more involved, not obviously to the point where they feel insecure, but where they’re genuinely engaged in the sort of decision-making process and then can understand and have input into that I think’s really important.
Margie:
Well, we run each of the different teams as little mini P&Ls so that they are learning that, they’re understanding why, what margins do I need on this particular thing?
If I want to give a pay rise, where’s that going to come from? How does that work down to what’s the ratio on my team? Is it too high? Is it too low? So that they’re considering it. They don’t have to carry all the pressure, but they’re learning about the business dynamics as well as the craft.
Darren:
Interesting. Now, media has always been one of those areas that’s had significant investments for an agency. There was high costs of research and technology and the technology games even got harder because everyone’s talking about AI enabled, everyone seems to be promising it.
And then we’ve got the holding companies, it’s almost like a bit of a I was going to say dick swinging, but yeah, that’s probably wrong. It’s a bit of a game to see who can commit the largest amount, 300 million, 500 million, a billion dollars to AI enabling their agencies.
One of the things they try and use against indies is, but they couldn’t possibly have that level of investment that we are making. And yet it’s not true, is it?
Jacquie:
Definitely not true. I mean like I said right at the beginning, we had quite a significant toolkit data and tech toolkit with a top 10 advertiser. And then when we couldn’t afford the fancy toolkit, we then had to review everything.
And I think it started making me realize the decisions that most indies are making because you can’t always have all of it, but you have to be more strategic about what you need. But I think for us it’s been this wonderful evolution of the democratization of it all.
So, we don’t have to build it anymore. In fact, I don’t want to build it because it’ll be outdated by the time I’ve built it. So, all I have to do is stay ahead of the market, be testing and learning. Our team is always testing and learning about three or four pieces of new tech at once to work out what is the best solution for that particular client.
It allows us to be agnostic. It allows us, again … I have different even DSPs for different clients. So, it becomes this is your toolkit for this particular client and here’s the strategic partner I’ve pulled in. It’s all transparent. There’s no clipping of tickets.
And so, it’s a really exciting time, and I think it has leveled the playing field for all of us where we don’t need to build it. And in fact, I was talking to someone at a round table last night saying, I want to be the second wave of AI because I’m going to learn of all the mistakes they make and then I’m going to go, right. Looks like those three are the ones I need to now test and learn and they’re the ones I’m going to bring into my business.
So, I think it has been a good space for us. And then we are not asking our people to sell that particular tool or piece of tech that we’ve invested so much money in because in 12 months’ time, if that’s not the right best in class anymore, we’ll get rid of it and we’ll place it with the best.
Margie:
I’d have to agree with you there, Jacquie, especially around the transparency. Because some of the models that have been made, how do you know that there’s layers that aren’t being fed into that that could be impacting the solutions? And that’s probably a bigger topic that could be discussed, but that does concern me about, well what is the integrity of the data that’s going into it to inform what decision?
And then the second part of that is there’s so many awesome little companies in Australia doing amazing things because of the access to AI, vibing, whatever it is. There’s so many platforms that you can tap into that gives you access to fast, quick, informative things. That allows you actually to be supercharged without having to spend millions and millions of dollars doing it.
So, I find it really exciting when we can find a new partner that’s doing something and we go, let’s co-build it. Let’s leverage what you’ve done, let’s borrow it. And I mean, it’s savvy business.
Darren:
I remember going through — there was a period where every media pitch would have the tool shed section where every media agency would open the doors and be talking about all these tools. And it was the very point where you saw the client’s eyes glaze over because what they’re interested in is what can it do for me, not how many tools do you have in the tool shed?
And I think that’s changed because today media is much more about being able to inform decision making and measure outcomes than it is about having all these tools, this optimization tool this, this planning tool that.
Margie:
I think I’ve got to keep the human element to that intelligence that it comes with. It’s the depth of knowledge, it’s the experience, it’s been able to look at something and go, actually there’s a human insight here that we are forgetting because the computer has said this. And I think that’s what we’ve got to hold onto. And that’s why we’re lucky in a lot of our agencies that there is that depth of knowledge.
It’s not their first time and I don’t say that disparaging to young people coming in, but we’ve got to keep growing people so that they’ve got that experience of knowledge. They’re looking at something and going, that’s not correct. There’s got to be a better way that we can be doing this.
Jacquie:
And the other thing I would say, talking about tools is that’s something that I know Sam and I have been very passionate about is trying to do some deals for the indies so that they all do have the basic toolkit to do really sophisticated media.
Because some of them are unattainable in terms of pricing. And so, I think that has been really exciting for our members that they’ve now got access to proper data to inform their planning verification, all of that.
So, that’s been kind of another area that I’ve really pushed into so that we all have equal access to the toolkits and that shouldn’t be a distinguisher anymore. It’s the same thing around scale. I think some of those what distinguished some of the bigger agencies from the smaller ones I just don’t think is the same anymore.
Darren:
Yeah. And you touched on people, that’s the other area is that the number of times you hear, particularly from big network agencies, that there’s another salary freeze, or a headcount freeze that’s just handed down. You’ve already mentioned it in regards to for instance, COVID and things like that.
But the decision-making process in that case seems to be a formula that is just handed down without any real local context. And I think we’re seeing a shift, particularly in global businesses, to want to go to a format or a plan that just gets implemented into each market without any real understanding of cultural differences, even media.
Australian media landscape is not exactly the same as any other. And that there needs to be an ability to adapt to that. It’s one of the things that I imagine as a business owner you must be very attuned to. And how does that impact your decision making?
Jacquie:
Well, there’s so much in there. I firstly want to say I feel for the C-suite in those holding companies that do get handed down those decisions that they then have no control over. So, firstly, I’m really grateful I don’t have that.
So, I can make decisions around people, head count, salaries obviously there’s a business cost to that, but that’s the part that is so exciting about running your own. So, I’ll say that, that is an advantage being an owner. I’m trying to think what else you then said.
Darren:
Well also, having to make the decisions on a personal basis, and what’s needed for your clients and your business that is not necessarily considered in any of those formulas about resourcing or-
Margie:
You said it earlier about the long-term game. It’s the mid-to-long-term game that you’re playing, not the short-term quarterly deliverable.
So, you’re constantly looking and going, if I keep and invest in my people, then the business will continue to grow as long as, obviously they’re the right people and you making those right decisions.
And I have worked in the holding Cos when those decisions were coming down from above. And I do feel for all those wonderful leaders in those places, but you are being dictated something. Whereas it is ultimately either the profits that you’re eating into and that’s the decision, you look after those people. So, you’re playing the long-term game, not the short-term.
Jacquie:
I think to your point, we don’t have a cookie cutter approach. There’s not the same structure on every account. There’s not the same level of seniority on every account. That’s really the organic conversations we can have with each client and what we decide to do as a business.
But going back to your other point, and I knew I wanted to go back to it was about the whole like global accounts versus local. And I think there’s something about how well local agencies know this market.
And I remember when we scoured the globe to try and find a good planning tool many years ago, and I couldn’t find one that had Australian data in it.
And so, we bought one from the Netherlands here. We ingested some Nielsen data and a panel, and we were finding in pictures that others that we were competing against had American consumer data in it. I’m like, “Why is no one asking this question?”
So, I think there’s something in that, and I’m not saying other local brands do not have now Australian data, but at the time I was quite shocked by that, and I was really proud that became a little positioning for a period of time that we know Australians because we’ve actually got the Australian data in there.
So, there’s not only the Australian consumers that I think we get to know, but that we can be really adaptable in terms of what our team looks like and how it grows. And that is a client-by-client basis often.
Darren:
Yeah. I think the dominance of the tech platforms, the Metas and it has started to create this illusion globally that it’s all become sort of amorphous.
But out of home for instance, the huge distances in Australia for a relatively sparse populations makes a big difference in infrastructure costs, understanding those things, having people that really spend time getting to understand media owners and the media landscape is really important.
And look, a holding company could do it, but then there’s not necessarily the longevity of tenure for those people to stay in there because the media industry has for a long time but tried to be proactive to extend tenure to get the churn rate down. But it still seems to be stubborn.
Jacquie:
Yeah. It is stubborn. And I think that is — I mean, anecdotally I’d need to pull it together, but it does feel like that’s one of the areas we all do shine is that kind of culture piece and how we look after our people because they do become an extension of your family. They do become the people who can either grow your business or lose you an account.
So, you become very invested in their development. And I think we punch above our weight in terms of what we provide for our staff. Despite the fact, our budgets might not be the same. So, I think we’ve had to be more creative, and I think we’ve had to be more human in terms of those kind of open and transparent conversations.
Margie:
And I think because you own the company, you have that vested interest in the long term thought about what is it that we stand for? What is it that are values or our actions or our purpose or our proposition, whatever those are.
You want to be consistent in the way that you pitch to clients that a pitch consultant might view you through to your people and your clients see every single day. So, when you’re inconsistent in that, and as a owner of the company, it’s your name, you have to stand behind it.
So, I think it is an element that makes you really accountable to it. You define it and you stick to it for a long time as opposed to a different leadership coming in and having a different view of their interpretation of a company.
Jacquie:
It’s a really good point because our industry’s so small and people will churn in and out of your agency, but you want them to take that authentic story or experience of you and your leadership and what you are all trying to do with you. And it’s why I call them coming home. We have a lot that try and come home.
Darren:
I call them boomerangs.
Jacquie:
I know, but I say, oh, they want to come home. And we don’t let everyone come home, but the staff performers we do. And we have a high rate of that because sometimes they do need to go. And I go, you go with our blessing, but you go, let’s have a plan. And I prefer them to be – again, I want to be part of the conversation. If this is not the right place for you, let’s come and chat about it. Let’s not just come and resign to me please.
Margie:
Whereas we also say, you’re going to do the best work of your career while you’re here and we are going to love doing the best work with you for our clients. So, there is that exchange of you may not be here forever, but God, you’re going to have a great time and you’re going to be doing work you’re really proud of.
So, once you can stand behind that and what you want that to look like in every day, then that makes it much easier to deliver.
Darren:
You’ve both mentioned COVID and the various challenges you’ve had. It was very interesting as an observer because I think every agency when COVID hit were reaching out to their clients going, how can we help?
But what I saw was it accelerated the number of clients, marketers, that were much more open to working with indie agencies. Part of that was the fact that we’re all sitting at home on Zoom or team calls or whatever.
Margie:
I’m laughing is the number of Sunday mornings that you and I were on a Zoom call in the middle of a pitch. Sorry, during COVID.
Darren:
And so, that was a different way of behaving. But I also think that there has been, perhaps not necessarily in the big multinational clients where their agency arrangements are set and globally aligned. But certainly, major Australian clients seem to appreciate the relationships they had within the agencies.
And I’ve got some theories on it, but I’ll be interested because you’ve both shared stories where clients become more concerned or more interested or there’s a bond that they form with the agency. You had a client fund and say, “We are going to keep spending because we want you to succeed.” And I think you’ve got a similar story too.
Jacquie:
Yeah, we’ve got a couple, actually during that period, one, we had a client asked to dial into all our team and say, “Without you, our business would not have flourished.”
And it was incredibly emotional day for all of us because you are working so hard. I remember the hours we were all working and to know that we were actually making a difference in their business was phenomenal.
Then we had another client when we came out of it saying, “Is there any way we can … would you like us to prepay some money? How’s your business going?” And we said, “No, we’re okay.” But there was this genuine concern for each other I think, because they were experiencing the similar challenges we’re experiencing, whether they were big businesses or small businesses.
And one of the things I love that’s come out of COVID is that we’ve become more human and let our kids walk past and our dogs and so, there was that in that client agency relationship. We got to know each other as people.
And I think it reinforced that trusted relationship that I think we have because they know my house is on the line. All of those things matter when you are thriving. When you are thriving, we are thriving. When you are not doing well, we are not going to do well. And so, there is this mutual investment in the success, and I think COVID just brought it to the surface.
And it was a really nice time. I feel like those relationships, in fact, I think all of those clients are still very connected to us because there was nothing that was too much trouble. We were willing to help them with things that were way out of our remit. They were willing to help us if we had needed.
And yeah, like you said Margie, it was quite emotional that they cared that much about our businesses. That they wanted us all to survive at the end of it.
Margie:
And the care for one another was there both on the people front. But I even found from an indie agency point of view, and I called a lot of the holding Cos at the time going, what are you seeing on that Friday the 13th? But the indies definitely felt it earlier, but that rallying around the checking in on each other, it was a real community sense.
And you’ve got to look at the good side of COVID and that definitely was one of them, of we are in it together and we’re going to survive. When we did start picking up and we were like actually, we’ve got too much work going on now. We need some support. Who’s struggling? Where can we dish out some work? Who can give us a hand so that they can make it through? So, I think there was some really beautiful sides of it.
Darren:
Yeah. It’s a really interesting conversation because we find that whereas there was a time where a client wouldn’t even consider an indie, it’s now almost like mandatory. And in fact, I recently had a journalist contact me and say, “I’ve heard a rumor on this pitch. All the agencies are indie agencies.” And I’ve said, “Well, I can’t comment, but yes.”
Jacquie:
We were on one recently the same, because I always say – particularly if we get knocked out, I want to know that an indie’s left and we were on one that was fully … and I think that is a game changer. We were the red herring. We were the one that will put on just to give them an idea of it.
Margie:
It used to be, you get the one seat at the table.
Jacquie:
And now, I think not only are they either, they’re trying to make it equal. So, they’re either got a couple of hold Cos and a couple of us on it, or now I think that’s fascinating. There’s something about the psychology of what they think they’re going to get when you’ve got a full roster of indies pitching. I mean, I’ve never heard of it, but yes, we were on one recently and that was what they told me too.
Margie:
What’s your perspective on that Darren? You are on the other side of it, guiding clients through it. I’m turning the microphone on you.
Darren:
Well, no, my observations at the time and subsequent to that, I think that when an indie agency is open and sharing that it actually deepens the human connection. There’s also a component of that is that the management doesn’t change and the people are less likely to change.
You’ve got to remember that even the most senior people in a network agency are employees and they can come and go as is deemed you have to be, whereas there is a incredible consistency.
I think, in a world that we are living in now where so much is changing all the time, that there is almost a visceral desire to have some consistency. And what we’ve actually seen globally is agency tenures, it got down as low as three to four years. Now the numbers are starting to creep up to around six to seven years.
So, there is a desire or an awakening that this is not just about going to pitch every three years and changing agencies. That there is a real benefit in building long-term relationships, and in building long-term relationships, you want to choose a partner that is going to be consistent in their connection with you rather than chopping and changing.
On decision making, I’m really interested because in 25 years of running pitches, I’ve only ever had a network agency decline to pitch because an unknown conflict, or we’ve got a client said, “Don’t pitch for six months while you on-board us.”
But I get a lot of indies saying, “Look, it’s just not right for us, now, it’s really interesting.” What does it take for you to decline an opportunity? What are the sort of top things that would make you say no to a pitch?
Jacquie:
Well, you did a webinar recently for the IMAA members and there was something in there that you said to all of us, that if they don’t disclose how many agencies are in it and they won’t give you a criteria and there’s no chemistry walk away. So, we walked away two weeks ago for all those three reasons.
So, I think that’s one reason, if we just don’t know if it’s a real pitch. There is another, if our team are at capacity working on current clients, we will never impact the current client work to run a pitch. So, we’ve said, no, it will kill them. I won’t do it.
So, there’s times where we are thinking about our people and their mental health. I’m glad to see they’re not being run over December, Januarys like they used to be. So, that’s always an important.
And then if we think it’s a cost … if you get asked for a rate card at the beginning or something like that and you’re like well no, I’m not quite sure that’s us. I’m not quite sure without a strategy we’re going to give you what rates would be.
So, I think there’s some red flags that we get along the way, but they’re probably the three buckets, I would say of reasons we would say no as well as of the whole value thing. So, for us, our values are how we run our business and how we treat people. So, the first interaction, if it is not respectful, we’re out because that client will be such a pain that it is not worth any amount of revenue.
Margie:
I would say creatively ambitious and when I say creative, I’m still meaning from a media perspective, because media is creative, are they ambitious? Are we aligned in that? Down to then what they say on your request to pitch through to how they behave in those first chemistry meetings. Are they aligned? Is there symmetry in that through to.
If they’re reforming as a client and they’ve got a new structure, and you don’t start seeing that. And I think you’re smiling at me because there was a pitch where we called you and said, “Darren, they’re not showing up the way that they’re saying on piece of paper that that’s what they want to be.” And we said, “We’re out.” And you’re like, “Hang on, let’s have a chat. Let’s all get around the table.” And we had a really good conversation.
But you have to call, you have to feel that gut instinct. So, those are key for us. And then there’s obviously the human element. Do you have capacity? Are you going to stretch people? Are you overpromising something to a client that you’re just not going to be able to deliver?
So, you have to take in all of those factors. It’s certainly not growth for growth’s sake. It’s got to be, is it right for the business? Is it going to deliver on the proposition of what we do and are we going to enjoy working together for the next few years? Rather than having tension all the time?
Darren:
I phoned a network agency CEO who’s quite famous but no longer in the business. And I was put through, because it was the days where they had a personal assistant took the call and I immediately the phone got picked up and they said, “We are in.” And I went, “I’m not phoning about a pitch.” But they’d already assumed that I was phoning about a pitch. That’s how keen they were for any new business opportunity.
And I always use that as a reminder that there are people that go to work each day, and their motivation has to be to win as much business as possible because that is the only measure of success they have. And I think we now live in a time where there are so many other considerations.
Jacquie:
Or in KPI, if that’s what your KPI is, that must be incredibly stressful. And I think the competitive set has grown. So, I assume clients know about all the holding companies, I don’t know, I am making an assumption. Unless there’s not a conflict, probably most of them are going to be automatically on it. Whereas we are fighting to get our proposition to break through in order to get onto those lists when there is a growing competitive set.
So, we have to be strategic about which ones we fight for and which ones we believe we’re going to be a right fit for. Otherwise, it’s not going to be successful for anyone.
Darren:
Look, this has been a great conversation. We’ve run out of time, unfortunately. Really value both of you taking the time and also sharing with honesty, because I think it’s a conversation that I haven’t heard. We talk about all the benefits that indies bring to the market, but the underlying motivation, I think gives people a real insight into why indies are showing up differently in the marketplace. So, thanks to both of you.
Jacquie:
Thanks Darren.
Margie:
Thanks for having the conversation.
Jacquie:
Yeah. That was fun.
Darren:
One question before we go, what would be the best decision you ever have to make?
