Hilary Badger is the ECD at Leo Burnett Australia. Hilary and Ellie go on a conversational journey that takes in female creative leadership; our creative loves and pet peeves; the importance of diversity in marketing; the existential threat to our industry; our love of true creativity and why it should endure; the best use of AI to ensure that humans remain in the industry; and what clients and agencies need to do to keep the creative flame burning.
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You can so tell when a team is not really gelling. You see it a lot when agencies have only just formed or have been rebadged or repurposed.
Transcription:
Ellie:
My name is Ellie Angell and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
And remember, if you are enjoying the series, please either like, review or share this episode to help spread the words of wisdom from our guests each week. We’re going to have some wisdom.
Hilary:
There’s definitely going to be wisdom.
Ellie:
There we go, before I’ve even introduced you. Today I’m joined by Hilary Badger ECD at Leo Burnett Australia, and also the author of several very successful children’s books, which I never failed to be amazed by. Welcome Hilary, and thanks so much for coming on.
Hilary:
Thank you for having me, Ellie.
Ellie:
So, we have been in a few pitch rooms together, and we’ve had a few other conversations together over the past year or so, as we’ve got to know each other. And I do have an admission to make.
I do like your brain. I you have such a good way of articulating stuff. And I’ve really, really enjoyed both hearing that in a professional sense, and then as we’ve had other conversations. And I really admire that in you.
Hilary:
That’s lovely to say. Thank you so much.
Ellie:
I really do. And I also admire that you are a female leader in the creative part of this industry. But at the same time as saying that I still feel frustrated that I have to use the qualifying term female in that description, but the reality is, we kind of do still.
Hilary:
Yeah. There’s still are still not that many female creative leaders. I think like a lot more than there was when I started, I will say. I really only had one female leader as I was coming up my whole career.
So, like with every industry there’s the same problems, sort of structural problems that keep women out of leadership obviously caregiving and those kind of issues. But I think perhaps creative industries have been last to sort of acknowledge the need for female leadership.
I noticed a real, in the last five years, say, a real uptick in a kind of acknowledgement of we are late to the party here. And just a real sudden lining up behind the idea that women are consumers, they’re the target of our ads a lot of the time. And we need to have a diversity of women across all levels of the business, which is, I will say, an amazing moment in time.
Ellie:
It’s an amazing moment in time, but you’ve been one of the people who paved the way, I mean and I think you have broken through, and a lot of people would love your advice, and obviously you’ve done it on talent and professionalism, that’s not in — I think as are all the creative leaders in this space, you have to be talented to get to where you are.
But other than those qualifying things, is there anything or anyone that particularly helped you to break through, to break that ceiling?
Hilary:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I guess I have really have persisted because it’s always been my ambition to be a leader. And I felt it was important for other women coming up through the industry to see that it was possible.
I really quite often get people saying to me, younger women saying, “I didn’t really know that you could be a mother and a leader.” And yeah, there’s not really that career model for people. There’s such a small number of people doing that.
So, I’ve made a kind of a point to be very visible, that’s why I love talking about these kind of issues, why I love doing this kind of thing so that people can see, yes, there is someone like that who I can be like. And I guess I’ve really taken that responsibility really seriously. And because I never really had that when I was coming up.
So, in terms of how I broke the glass ceiling, I think just persistence, just dogged persistence and just, I guess looking for situations, workplaces and agencies and clients to work with that thought it was as important as me. And when I felt I was getting overlooked to act on it and not accept it, saying, “No, I am capable of this and I’m going to look for situations that acknowledge that.”
Ellie:
I think that last point is so important, isn’t it? I mean, by not accepting the status quo. You take a brave choice. I mean, look, the line of least resistance would just be to carry on, be safe.
Hilary:
Yeah. And just say, this is how it is. But yeah.
Ellie:
You say where things are and maybe one day-
Hilary:
Yeah. No, you have to roll the dice, and you have to back yourself and say, “I know I’ve got something to contribute here, and I’m capable, and I’m going to push until that’s recognized.” Which it has been, which is great.
Ellie:
Yeah, I know. I mean, that’s absolutely fantastic, and you’re obviously succeeding just into your new role at Leo. Tell me how that’s going.
Hilary:
Yes. Well, I think I’m three weeks in, and I will say there’s a massive momentum at the agency. So, just a really wonderful time to join. There’s so much excitement around, there’s obviously been some significant business wins and there’s just a real sense of the creative department is so galvanized.
And I guess that that mix of, or that marriage of creativity being a business driver, that is my absolute dream in a workplace and in an agency. So, I really feel that that is what Leo is all about.
Ellie:
You’re surrounded by some amazing female leaders as well. Clare Pickens, obviously CEO and is one of them.
Hilary:
And yeah, Clare, Cath and then Jules in Melbourne. Yeah, so exactly there’s a really powerful lineup of women.
Ellie:
Well, you are going to continue breaking — well, you’ve broken the ceiling already, maybe there’s another one above you to break still.
But okay that’s fantastic, and I love the advice, and I love this sort of, do you know what, as an individual, like we all talk about it on LinkedIn, but as an individual, don’t accept the status quo, as an individual move on. And you are obviously paying it forward as well, which is great to see.
Let’s change gear a little bit and talk about something positive. I think one of the things that fascinates me is the power of marketing to actually create positive change, or to do the opposite actually, when it’s not done well.
I think sometimes we’re quite quick to denigrate certainly advertising as being something that’s very one-dimensional. But you’ve been involved in campaigns that have done a lot to generate positive change.
And I’m thinking specifically about your work for the Women’s Football World Cup as one example, but I think there’s so much potential to carry positive sentiment into advertising generally without being overt about it in messaging.
To give an example, a bank, creating a pride campaign is one thing, and trumpeting that, but a bank that carries progressive sentiment into all advertising via its casting, is scripting, its scenarios, its creativity, that’s a different thing to me. Do you agree with that or is it more nuanced?
Hilary:
Well, I think that every brand has a responsibility to reflect its audience. And I think whether it’s a pride campaign or whether it’s representing the true first Australians, or the I guess the ethnic diversity of Australia. I think every brand should reflect its audience and we all have a responsibility to do that.
And I think no brand can not be authentic in the way it shows up. So, we all need to take on that across the whole industry on every aspect. I think Shift 20 is a great example of how we can actually make change in a tangible way and involve people that we’re representing in the conversation about how they want to be represented.
So, we’re working on a project now that involves consultation with Shift 20. And that I think that authenticity is really crucial. And I just hope that we keep going with that. And it’s eventually not something that Eden needs to be remarked on. It’s just what we do.
Ellie:
So, I think we are sort, we are basically agreeing the authenticity, and you just sort of touched on it without saying a word, but it requires consistency. It requires values as opposed to once a year coming out with a rainbow flag. I know that’s just one example, you mentioned first Australians and other really important areas, but there is a big difference between them.
Hilary:
I think so, and I think also the intent is important. I think if there’s any sort of sense of pinkwashing or greenwashing or any other washing that’s a fail, I think all brands recognize that now. And I think it’s really about that being a true part of what the brand stands for.
Ellie:
How long do you think brands have recognized that for? Because I can-
Hilary:
It’s a good question.
Ellie:
Relatively recent examples where there’s been some spectacular fails of brands. I mean, I’m in my own space here, but from a trans awareness point of view you see some terrible executions, Bud Light was one such, which was relatively recent.
Hilary:
What’s your point of view on that piece? I’m interviewing.
Ellie:
Podcastee becomes the podcaster, I’m loving this.
Hilary:
See what I did there.
Ellie:
My perspective on that campaign … well, firstly Dylan Mulvaney, who they who they put in that position ended up receiving death threats. She was doxed; she was pursued. It was a horrendous outcome for her.
So, regardless of what I think about the marketing campaign, that was awful and indicative of the society that certainly the U.S. is experiencing right now. But as a piece of execution it was pinkwashing, it was performative to the point of negative stereotype.
She was there in long gloves and big jewelry and looking more dragged and trans and sort of — that doesn’t help, and that’s my personal opinion. It does not do anything to provide more nuance around what it is to be a trans person, trans woman or trans man. And it reduces it to caricature, which is where so much of the negativity comes from.
So, that was one aspect that was bad, the other aspect, there was no authenticity and buildup and consistency. They just sort of launched it, and as we saw, none of their consumers were remotely ready for that.
Hilary:
It didn’t go well.
Ellie:
It didn’t go well. I mean, there were there were minor celebrities with assault rifles, posting videos, shooting up. There were people going to the stores and smashing, it’s just an incitement of violence. So, it’s probably the worst example.
Hilary:
Well, maybe there’s a sort of a difference between a brand that’s trying for activism versus a brand that’s just representing the community the way it is. Do you know what I mean? I think that is a difference. I guess when you … I think there is a big difference between those two things.
Ellie:
Absolutely, sorry, finish your thought. I felt like I could-
Hilary:
No, no. I can’t remember what my thought was, I’m sure it was pithy.
Ellie:
No, I totally, totally agree with that. I think if brands want to show up and be active, they have to have some really strong validation and credentials behind them to do that.
Hilary:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Ellie:
It just doesn’t even — it is counterintuitive in some areas, certainly it is counterintuitive.
Hilary:
I remember the idea of representation, I really kind of started to notice it maybe 15 years ago. And actually, it was the government was the first client that I really ever worked on, where it was a mandatory to have it in the casting that there should be really what the Victorian community really looks like.
And I remember thinking, wow, I’m really happy that that’s a thing. And now that’s the way for all brands. But yeah, it’s interesting that it first came from the government.
Ellie:
Yeah. Look, I mean, Victorian government actually produced, and again, I’m sticking with the trans thing just as a rep, as an example. But they produced a campaign last year, at I think HQ, at Melbourne, which was to do with raising awareness of trans people, certainly Melbourne and attitudes towards them.
Well, I’m not going to go down this rabbit hole, but I did have some problems with that execution as well. But the intent was really strong, and I think you’re right. I mean, they’ve actively taken steps to try and — both over the message and represent as a matter of course, in their communications.
Hilary:
I don’t think that is tokenism or I wouldn’t see that as sort of like performative. I think the … yeah, I’m coming back to the thought of intent, I think intent is the difference. If I’m trying to represent my brand in a way that seems like inclusive to make a profit, that’s one thing, versus my brand is for every Australian. And so, therefore we need to reflect that.
Ellie:
That’s exactly right. And my problem with the Victorian government, the trans piece I just referenced it wasn’t performative at all. It was completely different from that.
But you’re absolutely right. I mean, the intent was genuine. I think they could have done the execution slightly different, but that’s just me. Some of those … and I’m sure loads of other people really liked it. And they also consulted.
Hilary:
I was going to say, yes, and that was to my earlier point about Shift 20, I think that’s the you know really.
And I also feel it’s important to acknowledge as you’re going through this process that you will make mistakes. Even though this is a top-of-mind issue for me I’m not going to get it right always.
And I’ve worked on a couple of projects with Aboriginal and Victorians, and we did have a moment where it was just clear that the culture of a corporate or a workplace is just sometimes not a match. And so, we had to really think about how we were communicating in a way that I had never really thought about before.
Because the workplace or an advertising agency is just very quick to make decisions. And it’s not really consultative. It’s just things are moving at such a pace.
And it was really interesting to look at that culture from the point of view of a completely different cultural lens and think, yeah, we are not talking about this and allowing every speaker to tell their story. And it was just quite challenging. And I thought, “Hmm, I have to continue to learn every day about how can I be better?”
Ellie:
That’s amazing. I mean, that must have been an amazing challenging but an amazing learning experience for you, right?
Hilary:
Yeah. Which is really what I love about this job. There’s always something new to find out about how other people are, why they do the things they do, and representing that in a genuine way.
Ellie:
But that’s the role of the agencies. It makes it so important. You talk about that intent and that authenticity on the behalf of the brands, but it’s the agencies who … like again, we are a very small microcosm of society. I mean we don’t necessarily as individuals with our backgrounds and our socioeconomic status and where we live, we don’t necessarily represent so much of the rest of this country.
You do have to think differently, as you’ve just said. I mean, that’s a big example you’ve just given, in any of this, there has to be some thought given, right?
Hilary:
Yeah. And you sort of unlearn your preconceptions and be open to thinking about things a different way is what I’ve learned. Yes.
Ellie:
It sounds obvious when we talk about it, but there’s so much bad advertising out there that I think it’s still relevant to say even today. And that sort of brings me a little bit to the other end of the telescope, because there is also a lot of chat about creativity being sort of in decline. This kind of advertising isn’t what it used to be, type of thing.
I often think about this in terms of how real that statement is versus it about us all being looking through rose tinted glasses a bit. All the campaigns of yesterday, they were much better. What do you say? Are we struggling?
Hilary:
I’m going to just say that I don’t feel creativity is dead. I feel like it will never be dead. But I do think that every era looks back on the past era and thinks, oh, it was better than — like when I started, it was, oh, the long lunches are not what they used to be and all of that.
Ellie:
Well, that’s certainly true, I know.
Hilary:
It is. But that world of long lunch is a very hyper-masculine world anyway, that’s going to exclude anybody that needs to go home and be the carer of children, for example. So, I personally, I’m happy just to get my work done.
But anyway, I digress. I think that change is just constant. And I have seen … like before I had my kids, it was very much a TV industry, and when I came back from maternity leave, it was all social media. And so, every day there’s something new to learn.
So, I’ve just kind of felt the creativity is a constant evolution. And I think that ideas and authenticity will survive in some form. And I think we just have to be open to what that is.
Ellie:
Yeah. I mean, I certainly think there are still creative forces in this industry. I think that there are other forces, though. I mean, you mentioned you come back from a period of absence, and certainly things have changed. Of course, everything changes, but in this industry, I think with technology, with data, with the push to the bottom end of the funnel, the push to personalization of content, it really has challenged.
Hilary:
Yes. But there’s even now a pushback on that, on the idea that performance marketing is going to be the solution because just I think it’s really swung back to the idea that the only way performance marketing can work is when there’s a brand that’s worth engaging with to begin with at the top of the funnel. So, that’s music to my ears.
Ellie:
No. Well, of course. I mean, we’re hearing more of that in pitches actually. I think that’s starting to come around. I mean, we could spend all day talking about this, it’s wrapped up in so many things. I think marketers, they’ve lost a lot of authority, lost a lot of ground that they need to claim back. I think there’s been some bravery lost.
Hilary:
Do you think that’s because brand love is kind of ethereal in a way? Like it is hard to button down. There is always an element of alchemy, I think.
Ellie:
When we run projects that are not pitches it’s often about looking at encumbercy relationships with agencies. And part of our process of that is stakeholder interviewing and we cast a wide net. So, if we can, we get into the C-suite, we talk to CFOs. And sorry, I’ve digress, but this is …
My personal experience has been more and more and more commentary around — marketers have all the tools and all the data now, but we still can’t properly attribute the contribution of marketing to our bottom line. That is the pressure that they’re under, but to your point, there is always some alchemy involved.
Hilary:
Yes. There is, but when they see a strong brand, everyone understands that’s a valuable property. But it’s just knowing how to invest and where to invest to make that.
Ellie:
Which is another challenge because short termism is rife. In short termism in terms of the tenure of both marketers and agencies-
Hilary:
And also, brand ideas. People get rid of their brand ideas too quickly when-
Ellie:
Either someone comes in and wants to make a mark change, or there’s too much pressure from C-Suite to stop and we need to feed a dollar in and get $50 out straight, straight away. So, all of these are forces that are really pushing against strong creativity. I think.
Hilary:
Yeah. I think definitely is a push pull. It definitely has changed the way people think about how they invest. But I do think that the brand is still strong. The idea of a strong brand is still important. And I do think the idea of the bottom end of the funnel is people starting to recognize it’s hard to win there without a … well, it’s impossible to win there once you’ve got a great branch.
Ellie:
Pull a return. You’re going round circles of the same people, you need to fill from top-
Hilary:
Well, if people don’t love you and notice you to begin with, then why would they click on your piece on performance marketing?
Ellie:
Look, and I do think there’s a longer and longer and longer tail of brands that are really not delivering on what you’ve just articulated. And so, it’s incumbent on all of us to try and push that as hard as we can.
Hilary:
But I think also I’ve noticed a big uptick in the kind of idea of a brand idea being a whole of business idea as well, which I think is so exciting.
Ellie:
Oh, when you can get there.
Hilary:
Yeah. That’s the best. That’s the ultimate proof of marketing if it can influence the whole if it becomes product-
Ellie:
And yeah, absolutely, and it can galvanize and motivate and all of those things. In fact, I mean, I can’t name names, but we were both involved in a pitch not so long ago where I think there is potential for that to-
Hilary:
I know the one you-
Ellie:
Yeah, I’m sure you do. I can’t really talk about it. But no, yeah, completely agree it’s wrapping, it’s wrapping the brand around everything. Not just the marketing or the advertising. It takes people and culture and some bravery, I think.
Hilary:
I don’t think AI it can create the whole of business organizing idea. I just haven’t seen it yet.
Ellie:
We’re going to get to AI. You’re reading ahead of my script now, that’s absolutely … well, I agree with that but let’s talk about AI in a sec. I do want to, just before we talk about AI, bring the mood back up again a little bit and talk about what’s great.
I mean, we both agree that creativity is still strong. There are challenges, let’s be true about it, let’s be real about it, but there’s still been some great campaigns out there, would you say, that’s really pitched your interest?
Hilary:
Well, I always love an idea that kind of disrupts a category. And I guess one that I really have been pondering on a lot, it’s not new, but the KFC mothers KFC work, I believe in chicken, I’ve never seen a QSR ad like that before. And it’s a full system of both film as well as design and its whole approach is so disruptive. So, I really loved that.
And I guess recently, I’ve been enjoying the Vogel’s Certified Toasters. Have you seen that piece?
Ellie:
No, I haven’t seen that company.
Hilary:
It won, I think the Grand Prix at Spikes the DDB Auckland. And the reason I love it is because of the shape of it I guess I’m really, I’m super into those creative commerce and business transformation type of categories akin and other shows because of … I guess to the point about whole of business organizing ideas. That shows that a marketing and a brand idea can manifest in something other than an ad.
It really proves, it doesn’t have to be a piece of film. It can be establishing a new behavior, or it can be, in that case, it was showing up at the warehouse in selling Toasters and they had a Vogel’s. Each toaster had a rating of the correct amount of toasting that toaster required for the perfect slice of Vogel’s.
So, it sort of baked the brand and the behavior together. And then the fact that it’s an ad for Vogel’s in the warehouse I just think it’s really clever. And I guess that Renault — did you see that Renault cast to work piece?
Ellie:
No.
Hilary:
That was another piece I really liked, because it doesn’t, it’s not borrowed interest like the brand and the purpose of the car was like central to the DNA of that idea. They just had a great social insight, which was that long-term unemployed people struggle often to get to job interviews because of often I guess in a lower socioeconomic area, you might be further away from public transport.
So, their insight was just, we can help people get to interviews if we supply them with cars. So, they didn’t need to change their product. All they had was a great insight about how they could help people with their product. And I just find that so powerful. Our colleagues at Publicis came up with that one, it’s just a great piece, simple and powerful.
Ellie:
What can agencies do more of, less of or differently to try and increase the number of these kind of transformational ideas, do you think, with clients?
Hilary:
Well, I think you’ve got to stick your head above the parapet and look at culture and ideas that can exist in culture. So, rather than kind of force forcing a brand into the conversation, I think it’s about finding a conversation that the brand naturally belongs. And then going out with thinking that’s bigger in a way than just the block plan.
Like what is above that where the brand and culture can naturally sit together. And that’s where I think true transformation comes from. Which is so exciting to work with big Australian brands that are into that.
Ellie:
Yeah, for sure. I think there’s a lot of challenge in that as well, though, because I’m sure there are some nuggets of gold where just the agency challenging the brief in a certain way, would really change the way that organization works, which is they don’t know until they’re pushed that way.
Hilary:
Yeah. And I think maybe sometimes a bit of a test and learn type scenario is helpful so that a little risk is more palatable than a gigantic one. But I do think one thing that social media has really proven is that if you’re not entertaining, you’re nowhere, and it used to be — remember back in the era of tarps and that just how many eyeballs it had on your TV-
Ellie:
We’re still sort of in that era in some way. I mean, it’s a scary thing.
Hilary:
Yeah. But unless people want to engage with you, then you just nowhere this in this media landscape. And that actually makes it even more exciting, I think.
Ellie:
But I mean, the reason I say we’re still in that era to a certain extent, is that that’s the challenge I’m talking about. I mean, I do see a lot of brands. I do see a lot of agencies; I do see a lot of pitches and what have you.
And it is surprising how many organizations still are crushed under that pressure. They just need to show more tarps than the last year, more eyeballs, more eyeballs, more eyeballs. And a lot of that is disconnect between the way to see the pressure that those marketers are under. Again, going back to the same thing, they’re not advocating for that change within their own organization.
Hilary:
Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s hard to break out of that way of thinking about things. And maybe it’s a case of needing to have both, like both earned and the sort of more performance type of.
Ellie:
Yeah. I mean, it was behind this, it was, part of what was behind the question about what can agencies do differently. I often say in pitches to clients, if you’re a smart organization, you don’t want an agency just stands in front of you want them to be able to stand behind you.
Hilary:
A hundred percent.
Ellie:
In other words, not just present what you’re asking to present, but be in the room with the CEO, be the advocate. Use the agency as a weapon in that because there’s such a lot of … I feel there’s such a lot of untapped potential.
Hilary:
I totally agree and agencies love being involved at that, at that level. That’s just another way to apply creativity.
Ellie:
It is amazing how much pushback we all know we couldn’t possibly too important. And I think a lot of marketers feel that it’s somehow taking their jobs away. And it is such a fine, finding that sweet spot where the agency and the marketing team is working so well together with such a lot of trust. In a pitch, that’s what we’re trying to start, that trajectory, right?
Hilary:
Yes. Yeah. So, it’s like a blind date in a way, how do you know when it’s going to have that connection, do you think?
Ellie:
In a pitch or after a pitch?
Hilary:
Well, both, I guess.
Ellie:
Oh, in a pitch there are all sorts of … I mean, it’s so nuanced. And again, we could talk about this all day, but you sort of know the sweet spot when you feel it and see it, and a lot of that is to do with … actually, a lot of it is not to do with, and I say this as well all the time, whether the output is ready to go to market or not in a pitch is almost irrelevant.
We are not looking for silver bullet, we’re looking for evidence of strength of thought and innovation across the process. We’re looking for the journey from rhetoric to substance. All the agencies have to start with the sort of, this is how great we are, but then are they showing that substance?
But that substance isn’t just about the idea that substance is about the level of communication and articulation and dynamics between the two parties as they work together. And I mean, I know when agencies leave the room and clients have felt that power, it really should I mean, the reaction is, my God, we just really want to work with those people or that person.
And it becomes less about, I mean, yes, we’ve got to do due diligence on the idea and the cost and all that kind of stuff, and the fees, but when I can help them to see that untapped potential versus what they may have been having or the way they may have been working previously that’s a pitch worth doing.
Hilary:
Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, yes. That’s true.
Ellie:
And when I talk about what they were doing before, that’s not because they had a crap agency. That’s just because maybe they’ve got into set ways of working.
Hilary:
Yeah. And maybe the spark had gone out.
Ellie:
The spark had gone out or they’re not challenging that status quo, and the result is TARPs.
Hilary:
TARPs, yeah.
Ellie:
Bringing it back to — anyway, I mean, we’re getting off tangent again, but these are all the things that I’m sort of doing behind the scenes on pitch to try and make that worthwhile beyond, you have 60 minutes to answer this and do that.
Hilary:
And here’s our structure.
Ellie:
Here’s our structure. I mean, you’ve got to do the due diligence at the same time, skirting around that and really getting into those dynamics is super important.
Hilary:
Interesting. So, how much of it in the pitch do you think is one in the chemistry session then?
Ellie:
I think that’s a … I mean, that’s really hard, it really depends on the circumstance. Like on any day you can fall in love with someone pretty quickly, and I think that can carry through just as easy agencies can fall down if that rhetoric in the chemistry doesn’t translate to substance and no amount of personal power can change that.
But if an agency treads that assertiveness line from day one, and that line being, we’re not coming in here beating our chest or telling you that whether or not the white charger ready to save you, but at the same time, we’re not passively, please give us the business.
We know who we are. We know we’ve got a right to be in this room and we are well capable of articulating that in a way that carries gravitas and calmness and shows the potential of where this could go as a relationship, that’s powerful.
And no amount of structure charts and tools and systems can overcome that power. At the same time, if you get that wrong in the chemistry session there’s often it’s very hard to work. It’s very hard to come back to that. And it’s amazing how many agencies can’t find that balance.
Hilary:
Well, I think it comes down to vision. Like what is the agency’s vision? And is everyone on the team galvanized behind that? That to me is very powerful when everybody is singing the same song and it’s about creativity.
Ellie:
You can so tell when an agency is not fully embedded in its own vision. You can so tell when a team is not really gelling. You see it a lot when agencies have only just formed or have been rebadged or repurposed where people just aren’t quite sure of it yet.
And you see it in obvious tales, like the CEO doing too much talking or people cutting across each other or not being sure who to … where there’s genuine connection on the — it’s absolutely … and it’s funny enough, something I advise all the time the clients to do is just not just look at the interplay and the dynamics between agency and client, look at the interplay between the agency.
Just take some cues from how they’re operating together, it’s intangible. Anyway, we’re getting way off topic here.
But it is important, because a crap pitch is a crap pitch, and God knows there are enough of them around, and a lot of work goes into pitching and it’s the lifeblood of the agency. And all of the stuff that we’ve talked about in this podcast so far doesn’t come unless those partnerships are-
Hilary:
Yeah, solid and trusting and safe to sort of fail and offer up strange suggestions, that’s how growth happens with true trust.
Ellie:
On the other hand, of course, we might just all go home and lean to the machines. Let’s talk about AI. Or we might not do that. Look, in purely creative terms, I admit I’m kind of terrified of AI. I really am. It’s here, of course, even though the floodgates are open and whatever analogy you want to use is open.
But I do think it has caused an existential crisis in our industry and I fear for the role of humans and for advertising agencies as the capability of AI increases. That’s not to say that anything’s dead far from it. I mean, I’m actually saying the opposite. I’m saying that people, I’m worried that people are going to go too far down the wrong path with AI.
Thinking about your specific area of expertise in creative ideation and development, what’s your take on how best to balance the reality of the fact that AI is here against the huge need for human intelligence still to remain in a way that enables us to have an industry and for people to have fulfilling careers?
Hilary:
Well, I think that it should be a way to do less interesting work more quickly-
Ellie:
Yeah, that’s a great way of looking at it.
Hilary:
I think that’s how it-
Ellie:
Keep it in its line on the hierarchy of-
Hilary:
Yeah. And I still think we’re a long way off AI being able to tell us what is a moving human brand platform. I still haven’t believe me, I’ve tried to look at ChatGPT for that purpose, just to almost see, it’s a great way of showing you what the cliches are as well, because It always comes up with the most obvious thing.
And sometimes I’ve said to it we will generate a Cannes Lion winner, and it never does. I’m just quietly, it never does because that’s the human spark, that’s where I just don’t think we can generate creativity by machines.
Ellie:
I love that idea of using it to show you what you shouldn’t be doing and calling out the cliches. I love that.
Hilary:
Yeah. It’s a good sort of like sparring partner, it can tell you … you ask it things and it comes up with rubbish and you can tell it, that’s not good. And I’m trying to creative direct ChatGPT, I think is the crux.
Ellie:
I love that. I’ve never thought about it like that before, that you could actually embrace it, but just in a completely different way that furthers the human, helps your own build.
Hilary:
Yeah, it’s provocative in the wrong way, if you know what I mean. It tells you what you shouldn’t do. I think. I mean, I guess creativity is always bringing two things. Often, it’s bringing two things that already exist together in a surprising way. I don’t know that ChatGPT has that function yet.
Ellie:
Yeah. It’s the word, that’s what scares me. But meantime, clearly there’s a huge amount of need for intelligent humans to make this stuff better.
Hilary:
Yeah. And I think as well the changing media landscape, it does open up new avenues for creativity. I think TikTok is a way that … I guess you could say, “Alright, well, that has cut a lot of the top end of marketing spend out of people’s budgets.” And there’s less need to make high-end films these days, but it’s also opened up new ways to be creative. And it’s kind of like democratized creativity, which I think is exciting.
Ellie:
I think you have to think like that. I think if you don’t embrace that then that’s a really challenging position for you to be in. Because you’re clinging to the you’re clinging to what has been as opposed to moving forward.
Hilary:
Yeah, creativity is constant evolution that’s what’s challenging and exciting and a little bit scary about it. It’s never the same.
Ellie:
Constant evolution, that is a great place to end. Hilary, thank you so much. I’ve loved that conversation.
Hilary:
Yeah, me too. It was a great one.
Ellie:
And we went off on tangents and you interviewed me for half of it-
Hilary:
Oh, that is my habit, I definitely have a bad habit of doing that.
Ellie:
You should start your own podcast if you haven’t done so already. But thank you again so much and all the very best in your three-week-old career at the Leo Burnett, I’m sure you’ll do amazing things.
Hilary:
Thank you so much.
