Julia Stretch, Fenn Aldred, and Liam Jenkins are three of the leaders of Friends of Rhonda, a network established to provide community and belonging to queer people in our industry.
In a wide ranging and candid discussion, Ellie and the team discuss what it is to be queer in advertising, and in life; queer representation in advertising and film; allyship, and what it means; the vital role that Friends of Rhonda provides in connecting and supporting the queer community; and the aspirations of the group as it extends from its Melbourne base into other markets in Australia.
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My experience coming back into this industry has been wildly really positive.
I’ve had such a really good experience in the people that I’ve met, the people that I’ve worked with overall has been so accepting.
And it was genuinely such a shock.
Transcription:
Ellie:
My name is Ellie Angell, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
And remember, if you are enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words of wisdom from our guests each week.
And I’ve got three guests today. Today, I’m joined by Friends of Rhonda, an industry community set up to provide safe space and networking for the LGBTQIA+ community in advertising. Founder Julia Stretch, say hello.
Julia:
That’s me. Hello.
Ellie:
Hello.
Ellie:
Liam Jenkins.
Liam:
Hi.
Ellie:
And Fenn Aldred.
Fenn:
Hi.
Ellie:
Welcome everyone, and thanks for joining me.
Julia:
Thanks for having us. This is a lovely little Friends of Rhonda catch-up, and you’re very much part of it now. We’ll let you know what we need your help with for the next event. So, you’re on board now, you’re a friend of Rhonda.
Ellie:
So, TrinityP3, I will be leaving to pursue a full-time gig. It’s very well paid, I heard.
But I mean, that’s actually a great segue because, of course, Friends of Rhonda, they are not your day jobs, which makes it all the more impressive that you set this up and that you continue to run this.
So, you don’t need to give any details, but if we can go around the room and just talk to your role, what you do in the industry that would be great. Fenn, maybe start with you?
Fenn:
Yeah. So, I work in a specialized business unit for diversity. So, we make sure that all the media that we’re looking at is inclusive of people from multicultural backgrounds and First Nations communities, people living with disabilities, the queer community, of course. Anything like that you could think of.
Ellie:
Fantastic. And clearly, very well qualified to speak, to be seen here. Liam?
Liam:
Yeah. I’m an art director for an advertising agency in Melbourne.
Ellie:
Okay. Julia?
Julia:
And I have been a creative for over 10 years in the ad industry, but over the last three months, I have actually gone in-house at a drinks brand. So, doing their comms and content which is fun.
Ellie:
I bet I could guess which one.
Julia:
I think you probably could.
Ellie:
I think I’ve worked with them, actually.
Julia:
That’s actually a really good example of what’s great about Friends of Rhonda. I think there are lots of (I’m just going to pat ourselves on the back here) industry groups in ads where it’s sort of primarily focused around creatives.
And what we really wanted for Friends of Rhonda to be was for people from media, strategy, client-side, producers, creatives, everyone to kind of be able to come together across disciplines. Because the ad industry and the marketing industry is more than the creative departments, as much as we love them.
Ellie:
You should pat yourselves on the back. I mean, I think it’s just a fantastic thing that you’re doing here. And anyone who’s in the community, so to speak, on the rainbow, so to speak, and of course, I include myself in that. I think it’s a fantastic initiative, and that’s why I got in touch with you.
Julia, maybe talk to the story of it, though. It sounds like an obvious question, but this doesn’t just happen overnight, and it takes work. Why did you feel the need to start it? Tell me the story.
Julia:
Well, you say it seems like an obvious thing. And when I first sort of thought about having a group that connects queer people working in advertising, I was surprised that there already wasn’t. To be perfectly transparent, I just came off a particularly rough ride of a pride brief where I was feeling quite like the only queer voice in the room.
And it happened to be at an industry event that my ECD at the time introduced me to another queer creative who was at a different agency, and we just spent the whole night talking each other’s ears off, and I felt so not alone.
And that’s when I just sort of thought, “Well, I don’t want an industry group that is Ted Talks and panels (again, as much as we love a panel), I just wanted a chance for queer people working in all aspects of advertising to come together, sit down, have a drink, have a snack, and just talk. Whether that’s about advertising, about life, but also, in a very gay agenda kind of way.
I kind of wanted for the next time one of us had a pride brief on our desk that we could create these networks where when someone says, “Well, if you want a full creative crew that are queer, do you know anyone?” And finally, I can answer, “Yes, I do. Let’s do this.”
So, that’s just my little agenda. And for the first sort of year of it, it was just myself getting this amazing crew of people together and having those drinks. We’ve got a really lovely group of regulars who come all the time.
We are really wanting to expand that out this year. And part of that was bringing on what we are calling the Best Friends of Rhonda, who are our committee. So, I’ve known Liam and Fenn and our other committee member, Alayna, for a really long time. And it was really special to bring everyone together, and yeah, hopefully, reach some more people this year.
Ellie:
Yeah, fantastic. And it’s interesting you mentioned there, “pride brief” and “I was the only queer person in the room.” I’ve talked to other queer people in the industry who sometimes feel slightly demeaned when they just get flicked the pride brief as, “We know that they’re queer. Oh, we’ll just give them the pride brief.” There’s another angle to it, isn’t there? It just feels like … sometimes it feels like tokenism.
Julia:
I’d rather get the pride brief from someone else. But you have to give the pride brief and then listen to the answers. And even in that time, I did have a lot of allies and advocates, but like all advertising, especially like with creative ideation, you do have to put a lot of your heart and soul into something.
But for pride-related campaigns, as a queer person, that vulnerability, that rawness, it takes a lot of resilience to kind of get through a project like that. Because even when briefs are divorced from your personal identity, it is hard to take feedback. I think if a client or a Creative Director is telling you your idea’s wrong, that’s hard, but that’s part of the job.
When that feedback is coming into something for the queer community, for a pride brief for something that you’re so passionate about but also that you are visibly part of, that can be even more difficult. And it was funny, I was feeling like I was being a bit difficult or that I shouldn’t take it so personally.
But through Friends of Rhonda, I spoke to so many people, and like all great queer catch-ups, we just laughed about it. We can laugh about the 45-minute conversation with a client trying to explain why you can’t put a brand logo on a pride flag.
We can kind of laugh about the straight Creative Director who thought his idea was better than yours and more relevant to the community; we can kind of laugh through that and know that we’re not alone.
And it’s never about we are never going to be able to kind of do the best job that we want, it’s about just sort of sticking together and making sure that we are continually getting back into it and trying for better.
Ellie:
There’s a vulnerability in what you say that I really pick up on that I really can relate to. When you are given the pride brief like that, like you say, you are in that community, so you have to give something really personal to that brief, and there’s a vulnerability in doing that.
And you are putting yourself into it. And then when those kinds of things come up, “Oh yeah, can you put a price point on the pride flag or whatever it might be,” it’s a very different thing that you’re having to deal with versus just a normal brand.
Julia:
Yeah, you also get put in a position often to be the source of knowledge on all things queer. And I can speak with maybe more understanding of, say, a trans experience than someone else might who doesn’t have any trans mates, but that is not something that I can speak to from a lived experience.
So, you are kind of sometimes being put in these awkward conversations where you don’t want to say, “Don’t ask me, or let’s not touch this.” But you have to kind of take people on the journey to get the right people in the room.
Ellie:
Yeah. And look, I think the tendency to make the queer experience completely homogenous can be rife in those kinds of briefs. And like you talk to like the trans experience, there’s two trans people sitting in this room, right?
And I do public speaking, and Liam, you were there when I did my thing with another agency there. But even within that, I’ve got trans lived experience, but I can’t claim things. I mean, there are very-
Liam:
You’re not a monolith, yeah.
Ellie:
Yeah, I’m not, yeah. There are very different perspectives within the … and I think people fail sometimes to recognize that kind of complexity in these kinds of briefs that come out. It’s the equivalent of we’re going to target 18 people, 18 to 65, as if that’s one homogenous group. It’s a rainbow brief, there are so many different angles to come at it.
Julia:
Yeah. I think, though, that the flip side of that is that that shouldn’t scare people off. I think that there’s so much power in marketing to queer people. There’s so much power in marketing, highlighting, or telling queer stories to showcase the values of your branch. But there’s also the fact that this is an audience of people who have money to spend, and they shouldn’t be not talked to just in case we’re saying the wrong thing.
And I think in terms of the sort of balance between no to rainbow capitalism and is MasterCard a queer ally. I probably hit somewhere in the center where I say, “Don’t be scared to dive in.” It doesn’t have to be (I always talk about my twinkly piano) — we straight brand say you queer person are not disgusting. You know those ads, they are always in black and white.
Liam:
We stand with you.
Ellie:
Yeah, great, thanks for that.
Julia:
Thanks, with pride.
Ellie:
It’s so easy for these brands to be incredibly condescending. You are right, I think a lot of it is just about humanizing and normalizing, and that is done through scripting and ideas and casting, and all of that stuff that can be missing from a crappy, tokenistic piece of comms.
Julia:
Yeah. But I think the number one thing I would say to any brand team (and I do say it every day) is like don’t not do something because you’re worried it will be tokenistic. But if you’re going to pick an influencer to work with, don’t not work with them because they’re queer and you haven’t got a plan for a 10-year pride campaign that includes charity donations.
If they’ve got as many engaged followers as another influencer who happens to be heterosexual, it’s not good to go with the safe bet for fear of doing something wrong, I think. There’s always nuance to that conversation, there’s always ways to play in those spaces.
But I think there is a fear at the moment around looking tokenistic that stops queer people from getting paid. Everyone deserves a piece of those marketing dollar pies.
Ellie:
For sure. And-
Julia:
I’ve gone on such a tangent, I’m so sorry.
Ellie:
No, I knew this was going to happen because I think there’s only four people in the room, and it’s such a broad topic, and look, yeah, no, don’t feel bad. But I was going to pick up on something that you said that does actually move into the next thing I wanted to talk about.
Julia:
That’s why you’re the pro, that’s why you’re the host.
Ellie:
I mean, it’s been fascinating, but what felt like a long time ago, you talked to, when I’ve been frustrated, I go into Friends of Rhonda, and we laugh, and that’s really interesting. And Liam, I wanted to ask you about your thoughts on how you feel Friends of Rhonda has helped either the people in the community or the understanding of others.
I mean, being able to just come and talk and share lived experiences of what it is to work in this industry and laugh about it is great, but what else do you feel comes out of it?
Liam:
Right. Well, I think the best way to answer that is to start with what I really love about Rhonda, what I really love about Friends of Rhonda. And that is that it replicates the really unique queer experience, which I’m sure we’ve all had before, where you walk into a room, you walk into a party, an event, a work meeting, or your workplace, and at some point, hopefully, at some point you meet another queer person.
And it’s that moment of, like, oh, okay, cool, cool, we are going to be best friends. And it always happens. It always happens. Or maybe not best friends, maybe worst enemies. But there’s a connection there. There’s passion there between the shared experience, which is good.
But not everybody has that. Not everybody walks into their workplace and sees another person like them or has a shared experience with another person, or maybe, for whatever reason, those people aren’t comfortable revealing that part of their identity in the workplace as well.
So, it’s nice that Rhonda exists to replicate that outside of the office, but still in a context it’s still work and professional. I think to Jules’s point before as well, like being able to go into Rhonda and now have a bank of queer people that I know that work in our industry across all different sectors, all different roles, different agencies, different companies, is really lovely too.
Because when it does come to those conversations of, “We’re really looking for a queer creative,” or “We’re really looking for a suite to freelance with us on this brand that’s doing a pride campaign or doing something that has sensitivities around the queer community,” it’s nice that you can pull those people out.
And similarly, I think the other really lovely thing is that you can see there’s so many of us across different places in the industry as well. Which I think you can take that back, and even if you don’t have another queer person working with you, there is that sense of, okay, now I’m not actually alone because Jules is having a similar experience down the road at her office, or Fenn is having a similar experience down the road at his office.
It’s really great to not only network from a who could we work with in the future point of view, but also, from just not feeling so alone, I think. Yeah, I mean I love Rhonda. I think Rhonda has created such a nice sort of warm and fuzzy feeling for a lot of the regulars, and everybody gets really excited about it.
And it’s truthfully not an event that we all sit around and talk about the briefs we’re working on, or we talk about the clients that we have. That comes into play as well. But a lot of the times, it might just be talking about what we’re watching at the moment or an event we’re going to, and naturally, work things fall out as well. But it’s just really important to have community because not everybody has that luxury of having it in their face when they’re at their desk.
Ellie:
Have you had many people come who are either in the process of or have just come out in their workplace? Or it tends to be more experienced?
Liam:
There was one person (this was last year, one of the early events) who had told me that it was a new experience for them. They just sort of realized that they might be queer themselves. And they were talking about, “I’m not sure if I should come to this event, I’m not sure if I’m welcome.”
That’s also, probably, a great opportunity for us to say every queer person or someone who thinks they might be queer or is just not sure yet, everybody is welcome at Friends of Rhonda, and the more the merrier. So, please come.
Julia:
That was actually something that I-
Ellie:
I think that’s really important-
Julia:
Something I pretty consciously … when I was sort of first doing the comms around this, we said queers and friends, because you never want someone to feel outed by attending a Friends of Rhonda.
We wanted to very much be a place for queer people. I have a lot of beautiful straight allies who I’ve worked with who’ve gone like, “Oh, can we support? Should we come?” And I’m like, “No, but thank you.”
But the communication has been, “This is queers and friends.” If you want to bring along a plus-one so that you feel safe as well, or for you feel comfortable, we know the power of that for kind of taking that step out the door as well.
Ellie:
I love that we’ve all been around in this world as queer people for quite a long time, and I love that we don’t forget the struggle that people go through. That we’ve all probably been through in one way or the other, struggling with gender or with sexuality or whatever it might be.
I think that’s really, really important. And having that sort of comfort zone where, yeah, bring a friend, and you don’t have to declare your queerness at the door necessarily.
Julia:
We don’t check gay cards.
Ellie:
Yeah, you don’t. Are you in the trans directory? No, that doesn’t exist. That’s a Hollywood thing, right?
Julia:
We’re actually looking that as a project-
Ellie:
I don’t know whether it’s just a trans thing, but when people wanted to talk-
Liam:
Yeah. You must know him. You must know them.
Ellie:
Yeah. I know a trans person, like you must know them.
Liam:
We’ve had that all our lives, haven’t we? It’s always that family friend at a function, or it’s someone in the office.
Julia:
Look, if there is a theatrical bisexual in Melbourne, I will know them, though.
Liam:
That’s the funniest thing. People say like, “Oh, actually you’re right, I do. I do know them.
Julia:
“Oh, do you know that drag queen?” Yes.
Liam:
Sometimes you prove it true. But yeah, it is a very funny thing.
Ellie:
But it’s still a trove. It’s funny, it is funny. Well, like I say, I really do think it’s so crucial that people feel that it can be a place for them to start as well as they’re not going to get shunned for being too new, because you can feel like that.
Julia:
And look, also on the flip side of that, we want it to be a space that isn’t just for the youngsters in the industry as well. It’s really important that anyone can feel like they can come and be part of it. And it’s just sitting around having a chat. Literally, everyone queer or queer-adjacent is welcome.
Liam:
A hundred percent.
Ellie:
Yeah, and that is absolutely fantastic. And my last barrier to joining was the age thing. So, if it’s not just for you youngsters, and as an oldie, I can join, then-
Julia:
You can’t see it on the podcast, but I’ve got plenty of grace.
Ellie:
You’re younger than I am, I’ll tell you that much. You’re definitely younger than I am. Now, one of the challenges of doing an interview with three people is that one person has to talk last. And Fenn, we haven’t heard from you yet.
Fenn:
Yes.
Ellie:
Can I ask you something?
Fenn:
I know that’s such an uncommon thing for me. I’m usually the loudest person in the room that doesn’t shut up.
Ellie:
Well, let’s talk. We’re going to take a little bit more serious turn here. I feel lucky personally that we work in a relatively progressive industry versus other industries that we might end up working in, in the world. But I also think the current political climate, certainly in the U.S., the UK, Germany, some other countries, the actions being taken, the rollbacks in DE&I, and the cut down, the major corporations of Donald Trump and J.K. Rowling, it causes alarm.
I know, I feel it as a trans, even though it’s not in Australia in the same way. There’s no reason why it couldn’t start spreading here. And we are in a position of relative authority in this, and we create communications, right? And the way we create those communications in our own spaces can either fail spectacularly or it can do brilliantly. But I feel that that responsibility, we sort of talked about a little bit earlier on.
How well do you feel that our industry is withstanding those pressures? And how are people in the Friends of Rhonda community feeling right now about that stuff? Is it on people’s minds?
Fenn:
So, it’s a big question. It’s a really important one.
Ellie:
It’s a huge question.
Fenn:
And I’ve got a very long answer for you.
Ellie:
That’s why I picked you last, so you’ve got the most time to talk to us.
Fenn:
So, I am definitely feeling it, not just from a media industry perspective, but even from a personal perspective, going back to what you were saying, that it is scary and wondering what the future would hold for me in this industry as a whole if things continue to go down this road, especially what’s happening in the U.S. and globally, and how that will affect us in Australia. It’s scary, like I’m not going to lie.
But Australia, at least from my perspective, feels quite sheltered. Because there’s a lot of sentiment from everyone overall that the support is to the queer community despite a vocal minority group. So, I do feel optimistically positive about things. But it is very sobering to see how quickly things can turn.
I think that a lot of the conversations that I’m having with other members of the community, especially at Friends of Rhonda, people are pushing for more queer representation in media, but they’re also feeling pushback even more so now.
And it’s not unnoticed that during this pride season there is a lack of rainbow logos. But it’s encouraging to see the companies that do when we are walking down the street, and I’ve noticed some, and it’s really nice to just feel like, oh, okay. So, there are people who still do care.
And it’s good to see, and it’s encouraging to see companies really sticking to their guns in terms of allyship. Companies and industries are going to experience ebbs and flows in their support for any diverse communities, especially with political climates, and I don’t think anyone’s surprised by that.
I definitely think it does give you a piece of hope, and it’s comforting to see when you do see companies in workplaces and industries sticking steadfast and doubling down or expanding their policies towards DE&I.
But I also think as an industry, we don’t always have a complete understanding of diversity. It’s fine to talk about queer diversity, but diversity as a whole DE&I-
Ellie:
It’s a huge topic, yeah.
Fenn:
It’s such a big topic. And it doesn’t look like one thing. Diversity is so intersectional, so, so intersectional. And my experiences, as I said, or our experiences aren’t a monolith. My experience is not going to represent the whole of the queer community.
And for me, it’s also not going to represent other trans people, including, especially, people of color who are trans. I’m a white trans man, I’ve probably transitioned to one of the most privileged positions. But I think that our lens on diversity as an industry can be quite limited at times, and it doesn’t fully encapsulate the sheer scale of diversity within diversity.
Ellie:
Wow, that’s a great answer. I think there’s a few things I could pick up on that. What you just said about diversity within diversity and the nuances in it, that’s exactly why the rollback of DE&I programs is so worrying. Because it will shrink and recede, and there won’t be the professionals in that space who really are thinking about diversity in all its forms.
I also think it’s really interesting what you said about being reassured when you … the lack of rainbow corporate sponsorship in pride this year versus previous years. And it’s good to see when companies care. I think that talks a lot to what you were saying, Jules, about fear. I mean, rainbow washing has become a thing, and I think corporations are nervous.
Julia:
Absolutely.
Ellie:
And I can understand that. But at the same time, one of the best reasons for DE&I to exist, at least in the queer space, is to provide some education around that. And it’s what all of us around the table can provide.
It’s the degree of education about how to consult with and building queer voices into communications and into our advertising spaces without it being condescending or without it being … I love that, “Don’t put a logo on the pride flag” thing. That’s not real. Is it?
Julia:
Oh, yeah.
Ellie:
No, no.
Julia:
Oh, yeah.
Ellie:
Oh, my God.
Fenn:
But I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom. There are some great companies doing some really great work, and you see the things that they’re doing and how they’re, again, doubling down, or they’re expanding their policies, and they’re saying, we are here, and we do stand with you. And that’s not going to change.
Ellie:
No, I agree. I think that the companies that directly get hate on social media and they’re like, “Well, we don’t want you to be our customer if you’re not going to stand with us in this,” I love that. I mean, that’s a fantastic way, that’s communication. That’s a fantastic way to validate our experience and support us.
Julia:
Brands backing their decisions is more valuable than the original communication, right? I think that’s the most important thing is how marketing teams and brands can be in this space, is to, number one, get consultation have the right voices in the room. Number two, be prepared to be wrong and to adapt and change, but not be afraid to go for it. And number three is to back the choices that they’ve made.
Ellie:
And sometimes to back the individuals. I mean, I talked about the Bud Light example with Dylan Mulvaney. Within the queer space, trans is particularly charged at the moment for one reason or another. Trans women within that, even with all the sorts of things that are happening.
And I think with the Bud Light example, I mean, for start, I hated the execution because I think it painted trans to negative tropes as opposed to positive light. So, the way they set her up for that didn’t help. It just didn’t help, it was too clichéd. It was closer to drag than it was in some ways to trans, and that concerned me. And I just didn’t like that personally.
But then she got threats, she was dogged, people shooting up kinds of bad … on video and going smashing on the floor. And what did the company do? Well, they backed down. They didn’t support her, and they backed down. And that’s to your point, I mean, you have to stand behind and be consistent with what you’re communicating and learn if it didn’t go right, learn from it, and then move on.
Julia:
I mean, that’s marketing 101 in any context.
Ellie:
Of course, of course.
Julia:
Whatever campaign you put out, you’ve got the plan A, plan B, plan C on what could happen and how you might respond to that. It’s pretty straightforward crisis management regardless. But I think more importantly, when again, it comes back to the vulnerability of using your identity to sell something, there has to be backing for that.
Liam:
And I think the Bud Light example in particular raises good questions too. Because, controversial but it is true, there are some brands that probably just shouldn’t make a pride campaign or, rather, shouldn’t appeal to or sell to us in that explicit of a way.
Because if you look at your customer base and you realize that you’re actually only appealing to a very small percentage of it, but in Bud Light’s example, you’re also talking to people who do not like us, and in fact, a lot of them would want us dead, to be frank, it becomes dangerous.
And then the other thing that comes into that equation is there’s lots of conversation always about your intent is everything, intent is everything. And frankly, it’s not like your outcome and your impact is everything.
And for that example, for Bud Light, the impact was they actually caused more regression in the American, I guess, politics or political debate that was happening at the time, and then, of course, that trickled through to the rest of the world.
And like we don’t know (like, I mean, maybe one of us has spoken to somebody who worked on the campaign) what their intent was. But the fact of the matter is, to your point, Ellie, the execution was not properly considered in how that could impact perceptions of trans people and clichés and stereotypes of trans women in particular. Not to mention the misogyny that comes along with that too.
That’s really, really rainbow washing because it’s a brand that said, “We should appeal to this audience because we should stand up for them, we should speak for them.” Again, we don’t know their exact intention, but we can assume that’s what it was.
But then didn’t do the extra work afterwards to realize how would this directly impact the queer community. Would this in fact actually be more dangerous for them? But in the end, it was a no, we won’t do this, and I’m assuming there would’ve been a part of it too. We know that we can make some money off of these people-
Ellie:
Oh, we want to sell beer, of course we want to sell beer.
Liam:
It is a tricky place to be, and then especially when clients are already kind of scared about saying anything at all. But we do also have to be aware that there are some clients, there are some brands, there are some products that, as queer people, we should be able to say, “Professionally, I do not believe that you should align yourself in this capacity with the queer community, because the impact that you could have could actually be worse than not saying anything at all.
Ellie:
And it also bleeds into some of the impact we’ve just been talking about with the lack of support. The amount of marketing teams sitting around saying, “Well, we don’t want another Bud Light on our hands, so maybe we shouldn’t, maybe we shouldn’t go that far.” The fear
Julia:
And then no, we are not hiring trans models, we’re not hiring trans influencers, we are not featuring just trans people at all. That is when it goes too far, right? That’s when we’re not putting money into-
Liam:
The queer community.
Julia:
The queer community.
Liam:
And uplifting.
Julia:
That’s when we are devaluing the value of those professionals in that industry.
Ellie:
We’re not being allies in that space. And I wanted to talk about allyship and advocacy. When I do public speaking to raise awareness of what it is to be trans, I almost always get asked about allyship, how people could be better allies even professionally in the workplace.
And again, it’s a huge topic because I try and talk to the fact that as an individual in the room, you don’t have to be an activist to be an ally. You can be an ally in these smallest and most simple ways, just by enabling people to be themselves and opening the door for them.
But on a more corporate level, allyship is about hiring people. It is about making sure that trans women and men, or gay people, or whatever it might be, are not just represented for the sake of it, but represented properly and consulted with properly about how that’s done.
So, look, I think it’s a huge topic, but I’ve just given you my opinion. But what does good allyship from companies and people look like to you? And how can we show up with clients and colleagues ourselves to improve understanding or to reduce potential bigotry in the workplace? Jules, what do you think?
Julia:
I think it really comes down to, kind of what I said before, which is don’t be afraid to engage with queer people, queer topics; don’t be afraid to hire us and the people in the community. But the number one thing is don’t be afraid to be wrong.
Like I think this idea where you are going to get canceled or shut down if you say the wrong thing, which is stopping you from saying anything, that’s a real issue. And I would just say, say something, go for it, and be okay and comfortable with being guided in a different direction, and then go in that direction. I think it shouldn’t be scary.
Ellie:
No, I think that takes something from us as well as queer people. And I talked about that when … I could repeat myself, Liam’s already heard this, but we should approach that with empathy too. When I affirmed my gender a couple of years ago now in the work, I mean, it was the last step and a very big wall for me, right? So, I’ve been out and around for a long time.
But one of the first things that TrinityP3 did was say, “Look, how do you want us to roll with you? Can you give us a little roadmap here?” Which is great because it made me a stakeholder in my journey.
But one of the first things I was able to say was, “Look, I know that people tread on eggshells around me” and they worry about, “Oh God, if you don’t name me once, that’s it.” I said, “Look, this is hard for people to grip, particularly people who’ve known me for 15 years beforehand, so of course, be kind to yourselves as well, and if you make a mistake, it’s okay. I’m going to know if it’s malicious or not.”
Fenn:
It’s about intention. Something that I always say is, it’s always about intention. We will know if you’re trying to be rude or nasty, we can tell when you’re trying to make an effort.
Ellie:
We have all experienced that, right? Let’s be honest.
Liam:
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Fenn:
So, I think the intention and the way that it comes across is really important. And if you’re trying to do the right thing, we’ll know. And if you’re trying to be malicious, we’ll know.
Ellie:
But it’s really important because if people are treading on eggshells, that dialogue’s never going to happen. And I think we can be allies to help the allies, if that makes sense.
Julia:
A hundred percent.
Ellie:
I think it’s really important. And when you do talk about experiences in the workplace (I’m kind of interested, without obviously naming names and saying anything sensitive), are people still having bad experiences in the workplace? Does it come through? I mean, I know the answer is yes, but I’m interested in what comes through in the community, in Friends of Rhonda.
Liam:
I think at Friends of Rhonda, there can be some conversations about clients that might be a bit tricky to sell ideas into in terms of queer-related ones. I always go to casting, and I think it actually goes back to your previous question earlier as well. But casting, I think, is a really important thing that we can do on any job that can really support our community. And that’s a really great way to be an ally as well.
Like we don’t have to wait until we’ve got a pride campaign or a role that’s specifically written as a trans woman to cast a trans woman. And that, of course, goes for all different types of diversity as well, we should really be thinking across the board. Have we all heard the “too American” comment in regards to talent or photography?
Julia:
Oh yeah.
Liam:
Translation for anyone at home “too American” often means that there is a person of color, often a Black person, in your concept or your spot, and “too American” is a comment that often comes through, which is always tricky to navigate because you know exactly what’s being said.
And truthfully, a lot of the time, the person that said that, the client that said that, or whoever they are, they might not be intending to be that way at all. They might be coming from a perspective of “This looks like it’s an American photograph because of this person that’s in it.” Which is-
Julia:
How about we need it to be aspirational? That we’re a premium product.
Liam:
And then you get worse ones like that too. But there’s also ones that … no, I’m like if I say it, then they’ll know that we’re talking about them. Obviously, this will be cut editors. That’s okay, we’ll see the transcript and they’ll decide then.
But there’s also “too European,” which is a comment that I’ve heard a couple of times from different clients, which I really wasn’t sure what it meant at first, but then I realized in the images that this feedback comes through on is often featuring queer people.
And I think, like, those are, for me, the most difficult conversations when you have to justify (this does sound a little bit dramatic, but unfortunately it isn’t) your existence and your validity in being represented in something that’s not necessarily speaking to you.
And it comes back to this comment or this reasoning that a lot of people who have that stance may have, and it is relatability. And relatability as a queer person is such an interesting topic to me because kids these days (luckily and very grateful that they get to have that experience) can relate more to queer people because they see queer people on TV or hear them speaking on the radio, or walking around the streets, it’s great.
But when we were kids, that was not quite common. And we grew up having to relate to straight people, typically straight white people even if we didn’t have lots of connections with them. We would relate to (now I’m being real queer but real fruity) Kylie Minogue or Lady Gaga or Madonna or Boy George because they had those qualities that we really identified with.
But, I mean, speaking for myself, I don’t look like any of those people. I don’t share the same socioeconomic status as them, I definitely wasn’t the same age as them-
Julia:
You don’t have a sister named Danny.
Liam:
I don’t have a sister named Danny. No, not with two Ns or two Is.
Ellie:
No doubt you wish you did, but-
Liam:
In those moments, you want to shake the people and say, “Oh, we’re just worried that someone might not relate to them.” Like you don’t need to look in a mirror to be able to relate to a human being. And the queer existence is relatable, but the queer existence and, of course, the experience of people of color, of black people, of people with disabilities, of anybody who is not what the world likes to call the norm.
Ellie:
That’s exactly right. Well, the heteronormative patriarchy [crosstalk 00:43:21].
Liam:
Exactly. Anything that sits outside of that, like we are all forced to relate to, often like a minority in our community or a minority in our system, and for me personally, that’s the most frustrating comment to get, of this isn’t relatable because, well, the queer experience is relating to things that aren’t you.
Julia:
I think if the story of your ad falls down in relatability based on what the character performing it looks like, you’ve got bigger problems with your communication.
Liam:
Absolutely, absolutely. It’s true because it shouldn’t matter to an extent. It shouldn’t matter who’s delivering a message. The message should be what’s really, really, really important. And if people are getting stuck on who’s delivering it, then you’re right, Jules, there is a problem outside of who you’ve cast in the role, and maybe your message is not as clear as you think it is, and it won’t resonate as well.
Ellie:
I mean, other than comments about heteronormative patriarchy and the stuff that we know exists and likes to put us all in boxes (and it’s linked with communication), people’s inbuilt subconscious bias or unconscious bias has been layered through generations of how queer people have been represented in film, entertainment, and media.
Again, very segmented, the fact that they’re queer is the story. They’re not just a queer person doing something else in life. And of course, that has now changed, thankfully — over time, it’s sort of more modern film and drama that is starting to change. But historically, I mean, from a trans woman’s perspective, I’m Tootsie or I’m Mrs. Doubtfire, it’s entertaining, and it’s something to laugh at. And it’s because any-
Liam:
You’re the butt of the joke.
Ellie:
I’m the butt of the joke, or I’m trying to make people laugh, and that’s because any gender fluidity, running male to female, is inherently considered as weak. I keep on saying the word patriarchy, but it’s true.
And I think those ingrained sorts of preconceptions people have on top of all of the other religion and the patriarchy and everything else, really does make it hard, and it will take a generation to sort of work through that.
And we can see it start to bleed out in kids today who see more diversity, certainly more queer diversity. But disabled people, indigenous Australians, I mean, God knows that it is bigger than just us, and it’s a huge challenge for so many-
Liam:
Exactly.
Ellie:
So many people of color. It’s a massive thing, which is why DE&I is so important.
Liam:
And even you just touched on as well, Ellie, like there are so many different facets of diversity that all need to be, I guess, supported and uplifted through what we do, through the work that we do in communications and media, but also just in general.
But even then, in the queer community, there are specific sectors or letters of us that will get lots of attention, and then there are specific ones that won’t. There are specific ones that everybody will love and will be right behind you, but oh, not that one.
Ellie:
And there’s also tribalism within the rainbow, of course, as we all know.
Liam:
Exactly. And it does get tricky too, because there is some point where it’s like, okay, if we’re trying to show everybody, then that can become overwhelming to somebody who’s struggling to see one of us, for instance. And so then again, it goes back to the conversation of, what’s your impact? What’s the end goal?
But yeah, it is tricky because we’re not just representing a very small, similar selection of people. Of course, every human is unique and different and diverse from one another, but in the queer community, when we’ve been sort of forced to put ourselves in those little categories, it’s tricky because a lot of those categories don’t generally get seen.
Julia:
What were you going to say, Fenn?
Fenn:
I was going to say, just circling back to the point about experiences in the industry as a whole, it is changing for the better because my experience, whilst I came out trans (I came out trans like, what, four or five years ago now), coming back into this industry has been wildly really positive.
I’ve had such a really good experience in the people that I’ve met, the people that I’ve worked with overall has been so accepting. And it was genuinely such a shock to come into a workplace or come to whatever events that I’m doing and people take a minute to process it and go, “Oh, okay, yeah, no worries.” And now everyone is just like, “Yeah, that’s Fenn. He’s so cool. We love him.”
And I’ve had so many people come and talk to me about how, through knowing me, they’ve learned more about trans people, and they’re educating their family members at home. They’re going home from the workplace and the industry, and educating friends and family and calling them out for things.
And I think that our existence as a whole, it does make positive change. And this is something that I talked about with someone earlier today, is if we’re only making an impact with one person as an individual basis, we’ve got to take the little wins.
We’re not going to change the world overnight. And this industry is not going to change overnight. That’s not something that’s going to ever happen. And that’s okay, but as long as we’re taking the little wins and celebrating those.
I think that’s something that historically we’ve always done, is you can’t sit in the doom and gloom of it all the time. You have to take time to celebrate because that’s where you recuperate and recover to keep fighting.
Ellie:
You just articulated brilliantly why I do public speaking on this topic, is for as long as people are interested in listening, it is absolutely about if one person walks away with a different idea of what it is to be, in my case, a trans woman, but in anyone’s case, and advocates to their friend or changes the opinion of someone else, that’s an amazing thing. We should never denigrate the power of that.
And I think it’s hugely valuable. I found high levels of love and low levels of understanding when I came out, but that’s not anyone’s fault. I mean, why would people think unless it’s sitting right in front of them?
Fenn:
Well, for some of the people that I work with, I’m the first trans person that they’ve ever met, and they have all these questions. And that’s okay to not know a trans person or not know that you know a trans person-
Julia:
Of course, it is, yeah. Or not know anything about the experience or-
Fenn:
And it’s okay to ask questions as long as you’re being respectful. But that’s why, coming back to what I was saying about celebrating Friends of Rhonda is such a great place, it’s because you do all this advocacy work and you do all this work in the industry, and you’re pushing for more queer representation. But then you get to come back to Rhonda and celebrate with everyone and talk about the things that you’re doing and have a laugh and have a drink, as Jules was saying.
Ellie:
Whilst everyone’s experience is different, there are struggles that we’ve all had to encounter. And I think, answering people’s questions all the time and doing the advocacy thing, there is a mental load attached to that. So, to be able to come back into a community where you don’t have to explain what it is to be-
Julia:
Take the mask off. Turn that code switch off, you’re good.
Ellie:
And not talk about being trans in my case or being queer. Just talk and not have to worry about that, that’s a great (service is the wrong word probably) thing that you are doing.
Julia:
We have a “What is said at Friends of Rhonda stays at Friends of Rhonda” policy too.
Ellie:
Yeah, fantastic. I’m definitely showing up for that.
Julia:
Yeah, please. July 10th at Bar Carolina.
Ellie:
Okay. July 10th, July 10th. What am I doing July 10th?
Fenn:
You’re going to Friends of Rhonda. That’s where you’re going.
Liam:
Cancel your plans.
Ellie:
Assertive man over there. What’s in the future for Friends of Rhonda? What are your plans?
Julia:
Having the best Friends of Rhonda committee this year is really great. I think it’s allowed us to kind of really look at what the cadence of meetups should look like, how we might maybe evolve to not only kind of have those spaces where we talk to each other, but have a way to kind of showcase the talent that is within the Friends of Rhonda community to the industry at large as well.
I’ve always said from the beginning, we are never doing a TED Talk, but there are ways that we can kind of showcase the amazing queer creatives that we have in this industry through the Friends of Rhonda platform.
So, keep an eye out for maybe an opportunity for those people who might be allies to tap into the Friends of Rhonda community in ways that are right for maintaining that safe space as well for us. Generally, it’s about come along to a meetup. We’re sort of taking it on the road a little bit, popping up at different queer venues around Melbourne-
Liam:
And that’s the thing, like even doing that is like the practice in our jobs where we’re making sure that we are casting diversely and we’re bringing queer people in and making sure that those stories are being told.
We’re also able to take Rhonda on the road, like Jules said, and go to different queer bars or queer businesses and support them as well. It’s nice that we cannot just keep it reserved for marketing, advertising, and communications, but we can sort of share the love with the rest of the community as well.
Julia:
And queer people love a drink, so we do very-
Liam:
Absolutely.
Julia:
And it’s often me buying a few bottles of Prosecco to share around. So, can’t promise it, but you might get poured a glass by old Jules.
Liam:
We actually have a custom cocktail at our next event, which is the queerest thing I’ve ever heard. So, yeah.
Ellie:
Surely not, Liam, the queerest thing you’ve ever heard?
Liam:
No, I don’t know, maybe it’s the queerest thing your audience has heard.
Ellie:
You’re on another level, my friend. Hey, thank you so much for your time and your considered responses and your thoughts. Anyone listening, please do check these guys out, support this cause. It’s really, really important for our industry, I think.
And for anyone who might be nervous or might be on the verge of thinking about affirming themselves in a different way in the workplace, please do come along. It’s a safe space for everybody, and it would be a great place even to start as well, I think. That’s what I’m picking up from you guys. So, thank you again. Good luck.
Julia:
Thank you.
Fenn:
Thank you for having us.
Liam:
Thank you.
