Kylie Ridler-Dutton, a senior consultant at TrinityP3, is responsible for managing and facilitating some of the most high-profile creative pitches in this country over the past decade and is here to discuss the implications for any marketer managing their own pitches.
Since the pandemic, agencies worldwide have been increasingly vocal about ditching the pitch, and trade media have run headlines and opinion pieces claiming it is broken and even dead.
As Australia’s and APAC’s leading pitch consultancy, we noticed that while there were plenty of opinions, there was very little data on this topic, so we undertook our own research called The State of the Pitch in Australia. One of the key findings is that many marketers and procurement teams are simply not getting the basics right. Kylie shares her experience and observations on why this is so.
You can download your copy of the State of the Pitch Australia Report for free here.
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The agency can do what they do to prove to you they deserve to be trusted and be chosen as a trusted partner, but marketers also need to earn that trust. It’s very hard for an agency to trust a client that doesn’t treat them with that mutual respect and trust.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder, and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Now, if you are enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review or share this episode to help spread the word and wisdom from our guests each week.
Since the pandemic, there’s been an increasingly vocal call from agencies around the world to ditch the pitch and trade media have run headlines and opinion pieces claiming the pitch is broken and even dead.
As Australia and Apex leading pitch consultancy, we noticed that while there were plenty of opinions, there was very little data on this topic. So, we undertook our own research called the State of the Pitch in Australia.
Run from June to December last year, the report makes interesting reading on what’s going on and what’s going wrong with pitching. One of the key findings is that many marketers and procurement teams are simply not getting the basics right.
Well, my guest today is responsible for managing and facilitating some of the most high-profile creative pitches in this country over the past decade and is here to discuss the implications for any marketers managing their own pitches.
Please welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, TrinityP3, Senior Consultant, Kylie Ridler-Dutton. Welcome, Kylie.
Kylie:
Thank you. A decade, wow, 10 years this July. I hope I’m getting the pitch process right by now.
Darren:
Well, you know practice does make perfect. And look, I have to say that it’s so encouraging for me, as the business owner and leader to have so much great feedback from agencies involved in pitches that we run on what a brilliant job you do at keeping people informed, being transparent, making sure that everyone understands how the process is running and what people need to do next.
And even at the outcome, making sure that everyone walks away feeling even if they didn’t win a little richer for having participated in it. So, first, I want to acknowledge that because I think you’ve done an amazing job and continue to do so.
Kylie:
Well, we do try, and obviously that’s how we get people to keep coming back. It’s important to keep complete transparency and treat people with the respect that they deserve going through the process, not from just the beginning, but also to the very end, as you say, to winners and losers alike.
Darren:
I think for you, and this is just my observation, it’s being on the other side in your career that really drives that home, doesn’t it?
Kylie:
Definitely. And I often let agencies know when we’re starting off on a process that I do understand what’s going on in the background, because I think that’s the side of things that clients sometimes lack or don’t understand or don’t respect the amount of effort and resourcing that actually goes into an agency participating in a pitch.
Darren:
You’re absolutely right. Because there are some long hours, a lot of clients have said, “Oh, agencies have lots of time to pitch.” But in actual fact, when you’re in an agency, you’re pretty much full on just looking after existing clients, aren’t you? This is not time that’s readily available to run a pitch.
Kylie:
No. And obviously there’s a different scale of size of agencies from smaller to the larger networks that may have specific resources put aside to run new business, but a lot of the time, this is over and above their day job.
Darren:
Yeah. And for them to actually commit to pitching is a big commitment, isn’t it?
Kylie:
Huge commitment. And also, as I say, over and above, usually what they’re doing day to day on paid business, it’s a very … well, our process, I wouldn’t — you generally run from 8 to 10 weeks depending on the flow and the commitment, which is a big part of this as well from the client side in a pitch process.
But it’s a lot to learn on a business when you are really sort of working in a silo, in a pitch process and don’t have the ease of the client as you would a normal retained client. So, there’s a lot of desk research and quick learning to be done on the agency side which takes a lot of time and effort.
Darren:
Now, we’ve got the report, the state of the pitch in Australia. For me, the big thing, or one of the big things was the fact that while around three quarters of the pitches seemed to get things reasonably okay, there was about one quarter, about 25%, where even the basic human decency seemed to have just disappeared.
And not surprisingly, these were the ones where agencies were really angry and frustrated because it came through in the comments they made. Does that resonate with you as well?
Kylie:
It does, and it’s interesting the psychology of some clients, or maybe it’s procurement departments that think that the pitch process should be a big secret. And I guess they’re used to keeping a lot of their IP to themselves and not being able to share certain aspects of the business.
But within a pitch process, as I just said, being a quick process, they need to be very transparent about the business and what’s expected from the agency for them to make that commitment as a business. Because just like the client side, an agency is a business, and it runs off profit and forecasting.
So, they need as much information as they can so they know that they can best suit the client. And is it an opportunity that the agency should take up? So, what level of experience do the staff need? How many staff are they going to need?
Which obviously requires a budget from the people running the pitch, for example. How long will the process be? When will you make a decision? When does the new contract need to be in place? These are all basic questions that aren’t giving away top gun information but are definitely the starts of creating a good relationship.
Darren:
Well, I think it’s essential to be upfront about many of those things so that the agency can decide if this is an opportunity for them and actually make an informed decision.
Kylie:
It’s interesting too, so I don’t know if people know this or not. A lot of the agencies, I let them know when I start a project with them, however, we actually get our client like they would to fill in a brief. A brief, so we know what kind of pitch they’re after, what are the types of agencies they need with two pages worth of questions to ensure that we’re matching the right agencies with the client.
Which sometimes takes the client a long time to do, which always shocks me because they haven’t thought about things, things internally themselves, like what is the future state of the business? Therefore, is it a different agency partner that will match the requirements of the business moving forward.
And the question that we find really difficult to get out of a client, and a lot of the time because one, they think it’s highly confidential or they don’t even know themselves is what is the budget? Because obviously you’re going to attract a very different agency partner if it’s 50k a year versus 2 million a year.
We’re not giving away any big secrets by giving a little bit of an overview into what the spend would be over the next 12 months.
Darren:
Well, I know procurement have a real bug bearer about giving that information away because they say, “Well, you’ve just taken away the whole competitive tendering.” They know exactly how much to put their proposal in.
Kylie:
Not a lot.
Darren:
And also it’s really not that big an issue because ultimately what value is going to be is to spend that. What are you going to get for it is the value equation, not how little do I have to spend to get what I want.
Kylie:
Well, and as you know, you put a lot of these practices in place for TrinityP3 years ago, is a lot of clients uneducated on what value is versus what a budget is. So, trying to educate them in that early piece is a little bit of a — I don’t think most people understand the work that we have to do with the client before we even get the pitch off the ground.
Darren:
Yeah, that’s true. Well, can you give some examples of the types of conversations because, well, you mentioned before, it’s a two-page briefing form. It actually takes hours and hours of conversations often with the client to get their head into why are they pitching and what does success look like?
And I love that idea of getting them to define at the end of this process, it’s going to take 8 to 10 weeks, let’s say, what will be a successful outcome for you? Not which agency, but what would success look like is I think really important.
Kylie:
That’s a really important question. A lot of the time they haven’t had those discussions internally and they also haven’t onboarded all of the decision makers inside of the business to make sure that they’re all on the same page.
Because it would be nothing worse than going through, as you say, an 8 to 10-week process without being aligned internally and then getting to the end of the process and actually finding out that you have the wrong outcome.
So, we had one CMO last year that we ran a pitch process with, and the hardest thing was actually getting all of her marketing managers who needed to be a part of the decision making to dedicate time and make this a priority as they would a normal brand campaign priority, for example.
So, we needed someone at the top to actually say she was clearing out her diary, so all of her team would actually see how important this was to the business. And therefore, she led by example and the process actually ran really well.
I can’t tell you how many examples we have of asking all the questions up front. “Are you all available over the 8 to 10 weeks coming up? Is there any annual leave? Any conferences?” “No, no we’re all good.”
You get halfway through and then you have to stop the process for two weeks because someone forgot they’re going overseas for two weeks on a holiday.
Darren:
Well, the worst one for me, I remember someone had a wedding, they were getting married, and I’m like, three weeks ago when we discussed this, you didn’t remember that you were getting married. Seems to be a rather significant personal commitment to me, but hey, who am I to judge your relationship decisions?
Kylie:
So, timings, commitment, I mean, a pitch process is a huge commitment because you are going to spend a huge amount of money with this partner over the next, well, usually it’s a three-year plus contract. So, treating this as important as you would any other internal project is critical for the success of a pitch.
Darren:
One of the things, and you touched on it just then, which is this thing where suddenly the pitch is put on hold and often pitches will start with a real flurry of activity. And agencies are engaged, and expectations are high and then it suddenly just stops because people run out of time or energy or something comes up. What would be the best way to actually manage that if something unforeseen like that happens?
Kylie:
Communication. So, communication is so important, and I feel from the insights that we’ve learned recently from our pitch survey is that communication is one of the highest things missing in a successful pitch and the bug bear of a lot of agencies getting kept in the dark.
So, obviously that’s when the paranoia starts to set in. When we have a client that has to put something on hold, but hey, stuff happens and it’s not always predictable. So, if that does happen, tell us the truth, communicate it so we can actually keep everybody informed. And they realize that it’s nothing to do with them, they haven’t lost anything as yet.
Darren:
You’re right about paranoia. Because I know whenever there’s silence from a client, and I know this because the number of times agencies who are in pitches that we are not running will phone me up and go, “The client’s ghosting me. Have you heard anything?” And I go, “It’s not my pitch, but they could just be caught up with some sort of process. Have you asked them?”
“Yeah, I asked but they say, no, no, everything’s fine. They’ll get back to us.” Even being honest to say, “Hey, we’ve had a scheduling problem, we’re having trouble getting people together, we’re thinking, we’re at this stage, we’re working towards two weeks’ time. We’ll get back to you in 10 days and let you know once it’s locked in.”
Giving them very clear instructions so that in that vacuum, their little creative minds and not creating all sorts of disasters.
Kylie:
Exactly, simple. And it also encourages a healthy relationship from the get go. You don’t want the … as I keep saying, it’s not master servant anymore because that makes a relationship quite transactional and doesn’t set you off on the right path from the beginning.
And that paranoia does set in so clear communication is going to make everyone’s lives a lot easier. But we do understand things happen.
I think as examples, something that I find often happens is the marketing team haven’t realized or have tried to keep procurement a little bit in the dark and not involved in the process because as we know the paperwork can be so lengthy and exhausting and ridiculous and has nothing to do with marketing. It’s usually a black and white dry how do we purchase stationary procurement format that makes no sense, and we all have to weed through and make sure it makes sense.
But often we will get a little bit through the process, and they have an informed procurement jump in and that can be a big delay because they need to actually get all of their ducks in a row within the business before we can move forward.
Darren:
It’s funny as you’re saying that I remember a procurement guy turned up with his RFP and one of the things he was asking is, “Could they provide their redundancy plans for the agency?” And I said, “What do you mean?”
“Well, if there’s a major manufacturing malfunction, what plans do they have to be able to overcome that?” And I go, “I’m not sure this is manufacturing.” And he’s going, “Well, I manufacture advertising.”
Had no idea of what was actually involved. I said, “Well, they’ll probably just get someone else to do it in the agency.” If someone gets injured or do you mean if the whole building collapses one day, I don’t think we need plan for this. It’s ridiculous.
Kylie:
It’s an example where it’s not actually relevant to what we’re doing or marketing because they don’t understand what marketing is. So, these are all the sorts of things that TrinityP3’s consultants are working on in the background.
So, therefore there might be delays, but there’s no problem with actually letting the agencies know that there’s not the actual problem, but we are just working internally with a few issues to align everybody so we can have a smooth process and appointment at the end of the pitch process.
Darren:
Kylie, I just want to pick up on that master servant relationship that you mentioned a minute ago, that almost can be impactful from the get go, can’t it? Often when you engage with clients, do you find that there are some clients that seem to have a, “Well, I’m here to appoint an agency and they need to do whatever I want?”
Kylie:
Very much so, and not in such a negative way. I don’t think they’re even aware that they’re doing it sometimes. But I think the last 20 years of marketing, we are really transforming the industry across a broad range of issues.
And that is one of the old school when I was even back in agencies, the way a lot of clients worked, it was, “I’ve employed you, I have committed a budget to you, so now I own you and you will jump when I tell you to.” Now that is so outdated, obviously.
And the psychology of any relationship, we know if you start off with a master and a servant, it’s all about dictatorship, it’s all about transactions. And that’s not where you are actually going to get the collaboration. That’s also a word that we see clients write on our briefing documents all the time. Collaboration is not going to be fostered by that uneven relationship.
So, I guess again, it’s a big part of the work we do before we even contact agencies to see if they’d like to be involved in a pitch, is actually trying to subtly educate the client with, if you do want the top hot shop at the moment, it isn’t going to be that kind of relationship. It’s built on respect.
Darren:
I guess it depends on your definition of collaboration. I think sometimes people think collaboration is, “I’ll tell the agency what to do and they’ll do it. That’s how we collaborate around here.”
Kylie:
Yes. So, you might need to go get a bit of counseling as you would in a marriage just to see how that’s not going to create a happy relationship.
Darren:
Well, it is, that power imbalance is incredibly destructive because to your point that a lot of marketers will say, “I want an agency that’s going to be thinking about my business all the time.” And you don’t get that just by paying the money. You get that by being the sort of client that’s open to and encouraging of the agency to be coming up with ideas and challenging you.
And it’s weird that in a world, maybe because everyone’s so time poor or maybe because they’re not comfortable dealing with uncertainty that they can often find themselves reverting to command and control, which is the sort of operating principle of master servant.
Kylie:
True. And look a lot of … gosh, we can get into 101 psychology but a lot of that-
Darren:
Well, I think you do seriously. Sorry Kylie, I think one of the reasons you are so good at managing these pitches is because you are working as almost like an organizational psychologist.
Kylie:
Well, I dropped out after year one that was, I’ve got my keynote, that’s about it. But I do find it fascinating, and I find people fascinating and I think that’s why I actually really enjoy my job because I love just seeing the way people interact and approach one another and relationships.
It’s one of my 10 years in July at TrinityP3 and 20 years next February my marriage. So, maybe I’m doing something right, I don’t know. But I think a lot of the reason why clients are scared to open themselves up is because they’re exposing themselves and that’s a basic human nature, isn’t it?
To be concerned about giving too much too soon to the wrong partner. Which obviously a pitch process, you’re starting out with a lot of speed dating to get to the end result. So, they don’t want to give too much away.
But in matter of fact, that’s probably the wrong approach. And the more that you do expose an agency to understand your pressures and your business, and different areas of the business, you are obviously going to get a lot better result at the end.
Darren:
It’s interesting the idea of trust because a lot of people say it’s about earning trust, but that’s a two-way street. In many ways the agency can do what they do to prove to you they deserve to be trusted and be chosen as a trusted partner, but marketers also need to earn that trust. It’s very hard for an agency to trust a client that doesn’t treat them with that mutual respect and trust.
Kylie:
Yeah. Look, to be fair, a lot of the issues that I do see when we are getting this initial briefing from clients is that what they’re sick of from their say incumbent agency, is that there’s a lot of staff turnover. So, they feel like they can’t give too much because it’s going to be a waste of their time.
But also, that happens a lot on the client side too. There’s a lot of turnover. So, mutual trust at the beginning, you just have to hope for the best and not be so pessimistic, I guess.
Darren:
There’s a dark secret in that about staff turnover. Yes, the industry has its own turnover rates but also clients that are not great clients are inclined to have high turnover rates on their account. People are not wanting to work on an account long-term where they don’t feel acknowledged or valued or trusted.
Kylie:
And we go back to the value proposition. So, procurement, obviously their job is to get cost cuts and savings which isn’t value because the piece that they’re missing is that if you want people to be retained working on your business from the agency long-term, those people have ambitions, and they want to be promoted and they need to be paid accordingly.
So, you can’t just sign off on a three-year contract and not look at inflation or promotions or education from the agency. And somehow as a business, which they are a business, they need to be able to afford to do that and give you the best offering.
Darren:
Yeah, absolutely. One of the other areas that I think is interesting and particularly because at TrinityP3 I like to say we practice radical candor, is providing feedback to agencies. Because I personally have seen situations where very confident, very intelligent, very articulate marketers left almost blabbering niceties rather than giving constructive feedback to the agency because they’re scared of hurting the agency’s feelings and yet in, that’s … well, but in the very process of doing it, they piss the agency off.
Kylie:
It’s not constructive and it’s not helpful because all of the losing agencies, which they’re obviously every pitch process-
Darren:
There’s more losers than winners.
Kylie:
More losers than winners. What do you expect them to take out of the dedication that they’ve just given you of their time and resource. The only thing they can really get out of this is learning for the next pitch that they approach and educating their staff in what they could do better.
And reviewing the inputs that they had and how they changed what didn’t work this time, every client’s different too. So, it’s difficult because what’s right for one isn’t right for the next. So, as much information and radical candor you can give them is obviously going to help them for the next situation.
Look, I do laugh because it’s almost a bit of fun for me when I’m working with a client, and I look forward to the question when we get to the pointy end. And I actually propose to them that perhaps instead of just a quick phone call, we have a … after the world of COVID that we have a quick video meeting to give the bad news.
And I see the gasps and really. So, obviously it’s something that in human nature, again, we’re not comfortable with having to let people down or give them bad news. But we do have to realize in a professional situation, it’s the exchange that we can give that is of most value to the agency.
Darren:
Well, the one that always cracks me up is when the agency tells me, “Oh, we’re in this pitch and we’re doing really well, but we came a close second.” I think it’s almost become a cliche because there could be four or five agencies, one was the winner, but the other four or five came a close second. And I think that’s almost like a coward’s cop out.
Kylie:
That hurts more.
Darren:
Well, you mean I just missed out, I got the silver medal instead of the gold medal at the Olympics. Because as Jerry Seinfeld said, “No one remembers who the silver medalist was.”
Kylie:
Exactly. And it actually hurts more I find, and the agencies are left more confused. And it also leaves you open a little bit. I have had situations where the agency said, “God, well if we were that close, can we just resubmit a little bit of something that would get us over the line?” So, you’ve not closed off the conversation.
Darren:
Perhaps if marketers understood how valuable it is. Because I know my own experience and I’d love to hear yours, is that when you are incredibly candid and disclosing with very practical things that didn’t land well and even suggestions of how they could do it better, the agencies are so appreciative because they feel like they’ve made this investment in being part of the pitch. They want to get something out of it as almost the consolation prize.
Kylie:
That is definitely my experience. And it took me back a little bit, I think the first few years that that would happen. But the more candid I was and the more time that I gave to losing agencies in what they could do better or what the client saw from their end or what was missing, that’s most often when I get a phone call or an email from the agency leader saying, “We just are so thankful. That was so helpful. Loved it, really enjoyed it, and thank you so much.”
Versus most of the winners don’t contact me and say thanks because they’re too busy signing up the contract.
Darren:
Well, and I also think that marketers should actually give the winning agency feedback as well about what they did well and what they could have done better. Because even though the natural default is to go into the honeymoon period, and everyone’s loved up and moving forward with the relationship.
But in actual fact having a moment to just say, “Look, yes you won and we’re really glad but here’s things that you should be aware of, X, Y and Z could have been better or didn’t resonate with us as well as they could have.”
Kylie:
I think some clients just don’t realize that there is something that we have offered in the past. And we do get asked occasionally for a transition plan because they’re the items that a transition plan will cover off.
That you’re starting this new relationship, but you still need to go back and get your ducks in a row and make sure that what you discussed over the last couple of weeks is actually going to be put into action.
However, nothing’s a hundred percent. So, what do we need to change or what do we need to still look at to make sure that we start off on the right foot?
Darren:
Yes. Procurement, make sure all those promises land in the contract. But then largely most people don’t look at the contract until they’re about to terminate it.
Kylie:
Exactly. Usually most of the time because they, again, when we set off on a brief with a client, we do ask for all of the paperwork. So, we are across the existing relationship and what they’d be looking for or what everybody needs internally at the procurement end of the business.
But we also do make sure that we’ve reviewed all of that and half the time they’re outdated for the contract was up and a year ago and no one even realizes.
Darren:
I don’t know if you saw it, but one of the commentary from one of the agencies was quite sad in a way. They were asked by procurement to complete a RFP online, which they did and submitted it and then had no way of communicating except by email and followed up and followed up and followed up only to have weeks later see that they’d appointed another agency in the trade press.
I mean, for me that was the worst example that I could think of in recent times.
Kylie:
And the hardest thing for us is a bit of fake news too. When somebody’s gotten a hold of a piece of information about a pitch that isn’t true and there hasn’t been an appointment and then I start getting the panic, phone calls and upset sort of emails, et cetera.
So, we are very careful I think at Trinity that we make sure that we are communicating as much as we can and giving the facts and no smoke and mirrors as far as what’s going on behind the scenes. And often it can take a while and it can take a month because if there’s a global procurement person, et cetera, we do have to wait a bit of time.
But if you just let them know, then again, that paranoia won’t set in, and it does start off on the wrong foot if you are entering into a new relationship.
Darren:
So, for those marketers out there, because we noticed that 70% of the pitches that were in the research were run by marketers. Have you got two or three tips that you would give them, particularly when they’re starting out?
Kylie:
Yes. You probably remember better than me, but what are the seven Ps to avoid piss poor performances about planning and making sure that the whole business is engaged, check that off first. Do you have a business plan that marketing is aware of?
Because you need to look at what the future state of the requirements will be and if that’s going to shift the type of agency that you probably need, had yesterday, but probably need to move forward with a different style of agency capabilities.
So, yeah, get your ducks in a row, make sure everyone’s available. Make sure everybody understands how pitch has to be a priority project just as you would run a marketing campaign internally. And that everyone’s across it and ready to go. And don’t be scared to talk to the agencies.
Darren:
Yeah. Actually engage them as potential partners in this rather than vendors or suppliers.
Kylie:
Yeah. What else? Be prepared, be transparent and don’t ask for too much, let’s get realistic. Remember, an agency is a business just as the client has a business to run. So, they have people they have to report to, they have a bottom line, they have a forecast that they need to manage to keep the doors open.
And look, let’s be honest, there’s a really vulnerable time at the moment and there’s a lot of agencies and particularly production houses actually having to close the doors because things haven’t been great over the last year.
And knowing what you are heading into is the most help that you can give an agency. Yeah, no smoke and mirrors, don’t ask them to do too much. So, if you are going to run an eight-week process, give them a small business problem. Don’t ask them to come up with a whole new brand platform and execution within eight weeks.
And be aware that they’re not going to own that IP either. So, we always say, and I think our process, we do get a lot of great feedback because our process is a lot about the chemistry as well as the output.
So, you’re not going to get that silver bullet from the pitch process at all sometimes, but low percentage of pitches will end up with something that you’re going to run to market with. So, just ensure that you treat the people you’re meeting with the same respect and value at every stage of the process.
Darren:
So, great wisdom in there and terrific advice. Of course, one of the things that we do offer marketers that want to run their own pitch is we’ll give them some power coaching upfront before they even start to help align themselves and set it up for a successful pitch process. We don’t necessarily have to manage every pitch, but we do want to make sure that every pitch that runs in Australia has at least got a good chance of success.
Kylie:
Yeah. Look, I’m running one of those at the moment actually where we’re helping them find all agency partners because that’s another thing. A lot of clients have preconceptions of an agency, but it could be that that was an agency five years ago, and they’ve had a complete roster change of staff or client expertise that they’ve picked up.
So, keep an open mind, we can help with that because obviously we’re across the agency landscape and you’d know better than me, what are there, 3000 agencies in Australia, unless we are looking at that which we are every week as part of our role, there’s no way that you could have an updated clear point of view about the agency landscape.
But we’re running a pitch at the moment where procurement have to run it because they have a global master so to speak, that they have to report to at every stage.
But what we are doing is we’re with them on that journey and giving them advice and our industry perspective on everything to ensure that not only are the agencies being treated with respect and given the right challenges throughout the process, but also being able to hold the client side and the market may ensure I guess the marketing teams are getting what they need instead of it just becoming a procurement process.
Darren:
Well thank you Kylie. This has been a great conversation, but we’ve run out of time. What’s next for you? Have you got some big pitches coming up? Because I know every agency’s going to be hanging to see if you’re going to be putting them on the long consideration list.
Kylie:
Well, things are heating up, so I see the next quarter as really kicking in as far as pitch world and at the moment there — I mean, and it’s not only us obviously running pitches, but I think it is a really pitch heavy period at the moment.
So, that’s the feedback that I’m getting from agencies and marketers alike. So, should be some exciting news in the next three months and we’ll keep at it. And I don’t know, I might see some people up in Cairns in the next few months. We’ll talk some more.
Darren:
At Cannes in Cairns. Exactly. Well, thank you very much. Have a great day and get back to work.
Kylie:
I’m onto it boss.